Community Forums

zippinbye · 04-30-2020, 05:01 PM

If you've noticed any of my previous posts, you either know or might surmise I'm searching for our first ever DP coach. Thanks to all on here that have answered my questions and given great guidance. I'm down to a half dozen brands or less that I scour the used market for. I began trying to learn and get in touch with the market about one month ago. Initially, I was focusing on model years from late 90's to mid 2000s. The goal is a slide equipped, quality built coach that its pre-DEF, and probably pre-DPF. I've tightend that year range a bit, as HPCR technology is desired, and I'm hoping for a less-dated interior design along with more slides, and I have either decided to "up the ante" or I have found values to be more in my favor. As of getting out of bed this morning, I'd say 2005-2008 seems to be my sweet spot of finding available coaches with all the wish list items, and in the ballpark of my budget.

After looking at a 2006 Monaco Executive 42' Rushmore IV today, I must say "wow" to the possibilities in a previously owned Monaco Coach. This is a private party offering, and I am just awe-stricken by the evident quality, luxury and abundant features that the rig has. You might say I'm in love. This coach is under serious consideration, just trying to justify the expenditure and commitment. I'm not new to RV life, but I will be new to non-towed mobile dwellings. I do not want to get into more coach than I can handle (I don't mean just driving it; that will develop). But I also do not want to be trading up in coaches over and over, or feel like I deprived us of required features or comforts. This beast would demand and deserve some dedicated care but I think I'm prepared for that.

Anyhow, I digress a bit from my intended post. In conversation with the Executive owner, learned for the first time of the ownership change at Monaco a few years ago. Looks like Navistar bought the operation in June of 2009. This gentleman visited the Monaco plant in Oregon several times during that period, in some cases for mods or service to the 2006 Executive. I suppose he might be off by a year or so, but he warned against purchasing 2008 or later models due to quality control and materials changes that occured under Navistar control. He claimed to have seen a noticeable change of the materials stocked on the assembly floor. He also had some friends with 2008 or newer Monacos that spent most of the first two years of ownership in the shop trying to clean up build issues.

Since I have a couple of 08 Monacos on my "radar," can anybody substantiate or refute this man's impression of QC problems that may have arisen during the ownership change? Comments on model years/serial number ranges to consider or avoid would be appreciated. I'm thinking of taking a look at a 2008 Dynasty Squire IV that appears to be nearly as sweet is the 2006 Executive, the most glaring difference being ISL power versus a Detroit 60 (DD was a $11,000 upgrade according to the build sheet). Same size coach, less miles and two years newer, a good bit less money. So unless there is a no-brainer quality concern difference between these two, I'm inclined to look.

Ivylog · 04-30-2020, 05:17 PM

Glad you’ve decided to save a couple steps and look for a 42’ rig with 4 slides. The original Monaco went under in late 2009 and Navastar didn’t start building until later 2010 or even 2011. A 2009 Dynasty will have a ISL 425 with a DPFilter. Some say a 08-09 Monaco build quality will not be as good... they were throwing them together. I would not have bought a 08 Navigator if that was true and it’s still true after 2 years and 16K miles. From my previous answers to some of your questions... this is not my first rodeo. My 08 has a 06 engine... would not have bought if it had a 07 or later engine. I thought I was happy with a ISL for 85K miles in a 42’ Dynasty with 1200 ft lbs until I got 1650 ft lbs.

Because of a dumb 10 year rule where we snowbird I had to have a 08 coach or newer and Monaco ran out of DD60 engines in 07. My perfect coach would have been a 06 EXE with a DD60 engine and like I said above I know a fair amount about this subject. If it’s a decent deal ( not even a good deal) and it checks out, BUY IT!

PS, I looked at new rigs before buying and was not impressed. You could pay twice as much on a new rig and NOT have near the coach.

PSS: The black sofa was added and the radar cruise is a nice feature. The price is a little high but if it has newer tires and batteries it’s a decent price.

jacwjames · 04-30-2020, 06:33 PM

I actually toured the Coburg plant in late Aug early Sept of 2009. They were trying to put rigs together with skeleton crews at the time. My guess is the crews were comprised of senior employees who may or may not have been working in their normal roles. When the tour was done they let us walk through several rigs that just rolled off the line. I was really surprised at some of the quality issues, they had a crew working on the various problems but I was not impressed.

That being said, if I found a 2008/9 model that had been taken care of I probably wouldn't hesitate getting it. It would still be a better quality coach then most of them out there.

vito.a · 04-30-2020, 09:03 PM

We currently own a 2004 Monaco. I would love to own a nice 2007 or 2008 Monaco.

The old Monaco Coach Corp filed for bankruptcy in Mar 2009. They had been building 2009 models for over 8 months and were preparing for 2010 models.
I would not hesitate to buy a 2008 model or an early 2009. I don't think they even made any 2010 Executive or Signatures.

I should warn you that a 2005-2008 coach will need lots of time and money to bring it back up to standards. A person buying one of these coaches should be prepared to DIY a lot of the work. Most of the experienced RV technicians left the industry during the 2008 crash and many of the new ones are not properly trained.

zippinbye · 04-30-2020, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivylog

Glad you’ve decided to save a couple steps and look for a 42’ rig with 4 slides. The original Monaco went under in late 2009 and Navastar didn’t start building until later 2010 or even 2011. A 2009 Dynasty will have a ISL 425 with a DPFilter. Some say a 08-09 Monaco build quality will not be as good... they were throwing them together. I would not have bought a 08 Navigator if that was true and it’s still true after 2 years and 16K miles. From my previous answers to some of your questions... this is not my first rodeo. My 08 has a 06 engine... would not have bought if it had a 07 or later engine. I thought I was happy with a ISL for 85K miles in a 42’ Dynasty with 1200 ft lbs until I got 1650 ft lbs.

Because of a dumb 10 year rule where we snowbird I had to have a 08 coach or newer and Monaco ran out of DD60 engines in 07. My perfect coach would have been a 06 EXE with a DD60 engine and like I said above I know a fair amount about this subject. If it’s a decent deal ( not even a good deal) and it checks out, BUY IT!

PS, I looked at new rigs before buying and was not impressed. You could pay twice as much on a new rig and NOT have near the coach.

PSS: The black sofa was added and the radar cruise is a nice feature. The price is a little high but if it has newer tires and batteries it’s a decent price.

You saw the listing! For those not as resourceful as Ivylog, here it is: https://www.rvt.com/Monaco-Executive...66363-UX351817

The owner seems to think it was a factory "showcase" or demonstrator. The build sheet shows just south of $500k. I'm not sure about current value. My first stab at an insurance quote was from Progressive with a USAA affiliation; they seem to value it at $108K without discussion of options or any details beyond model and year. BTW the TAG tires carry a 2008 date code, but the owner assures me the other six are four years old (all Michelin). The two older tires appear good and have no sun checking, but I'd swap to new just based on age alone.

Yesterday, I finally figured out that NADA retail range is total B.S., simply sampling list prices across the country for the same model and approximate in year (137,500 to $147000 in this case). Not sure what good that does for anybody! I suppose I need to buy into their wholesale price guide while shopping for coaches. Obviously what matters to make a market value is an agreement between buyer and seller. But I'm hesitant to go down that path without better guidance. There is a comparable rig with less mileage across the country, asking under $100k/OBO. No way to know for sure how condition compares, but it's a tall order to match my local for-sale Executive, which is beyond pristine and loaded.

Using the insurance company value and/or the other asking price as a reference to formulate an offer, I'm sure my local guy will be offended. Nice guy, and I never want to PO anybody, but it's a big number to play with. I'll have some skin in the game with cash, but I need to lien something like this to make it happen. I'll just have to throw something out there and keep a thick skin I guess. My hands may be tied by what the bank thinks it's worth.

I'll appreciate any opinions on value or the general feel for this coach.

Ivylog · 05-01-2020, 06:03 AM

“ but it's a tall order to match my local for-sale Executive, which is beyond pristine and loaded.” At the Executive level, there are not many options although they can be expensive like the DD60 engine and the Vorad radar cruise. My math gene says a coach that is 47% more than the same year rig with fewer miles does not make it to the top of my list of rigs to investigate, regardless of where it’s located. If anything, the NADA low retail of $116K is higher than what I’d want to pay now that I’ve researched it.

Two years ago I flew to Phoenix and bought a 08 Navigator (41K miles needing 2 front tires) for $165K which was $35K less than NADA low retail and $40-75K less than other 08 Navigators. It had $60K in options (was custom built) and other than the 2 tires it didn’t “need” anything. I spent $5K on upgrades 2 LED smart TVs, 900W of solar, 880AH of AGM batteries, $1000 SilverLeaf, 2nd basement slide tray. The NADA low retail today is $163K and even with my upgrades and putting all new tires on it, I couldn’t get that much for it today and no it’s not for sale.

Looks like the $100K rig may have a ISX engine. If it’s a 600-650 HP version with what I know now, I would not buy and even a 525 would worry me.

jacwjames · 05-01-2020, 06:39 AM

It depends on who you buy from and the circumstances around the sale.

I know I've seen rigs listed by private owners who must think theirs is the only coach for sale and is better then pristine condition. They ask an unrealistic price.

Back in 2008 we were looking to upgrade and actually had been looking at different rigs for ~2 years. Anytime we were on a trip we'd stop at dealerships to look at new and used to gain knowledge on coaches, prices, etc.
I was driving my parents from WI to FL and on the trip happen to see a rig listed in Florida not to far from where they lived so after we dropped them off we decided to go look at.
The rig was actually listed by a transport company that moved repo'ed rigs for banks. The owner said that every once in a while the bank would offer to let him buy a RV at a good price which he would flip. His motto was that "he'd rather make 2 short nickles then 1 long dime" meaning he list one low and sell fast.

When we looked at the rig you could tell it was taken care of, I could not find one thing wrong with it.

Ultimately after making our way back to TN I decided to make him an offer about a week later. We ended up paying ~1/2 of NADA value, remember the economy was tanking so the market was getting flooded.

So it might be a good time to keep your eyes open and pocket book ready.

BTW, I lost my job about 3 months later but what the heck I got a deal and was happy.

vito.a · 05-01-2020, 09:36 AM

One caution. Most (if not all) lenders will not finance a coach over 10 years old. Check Good Sam Financing and Suntrust Bank to see if they have changed the rules.

zippinbye · 05-01-2020, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vito.a

One caution. Most (if not all) lenders will not finance a coach over 10 years old. Check Good Sam Financing and Suntrust Bank to see if they have changed the rules.

My local CU cares more about miles than age. Without yet submitting an application, they are saying “no problem” to 2001 model year with less than 125,000 miles. APR dependent on duration and a step up scale that increases% in approx 4 year increments. Looks like around 5.5%, depending on the particulars of my purchase. I’ll be applying soon. I’m generally debt adverse, especially with depreciating assets. My down payment and extra cash when able should keep me ahead of of the depreciation curve while allowing full payoff before retirement. But I’ll certainly shop the funding sources you mentioned. Thanks!

moisheh · 05-01-2020, 04:06 PM

Donot buy anything withh an ISX. One of the wirst engines ever made. The S60 is a dream engine but hard to find in Monacos.

vito.a · 05-01-2020, 10:53 PM

I disagree. I've owned two coaches with a Cummins ISX. It's a great engine.
However, the 2008-2009 Cummins ISX 650hp dual cam engine can have issues with the #6 intake valve corroding from the acids produced by the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) system. If you address the EGR system, then it also can be a great engine.

Some perspective owners looking at coaches with a Cummins 650 ISX use the intake valve issue as a bargaining point to lower the purchase price. Cummins has a new cylinder head with Inconel stainless valves that solves the issue.