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Old 04-12-2020, 02:21 PM   #1
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Cooling the Beast, question?

Since when running hydraulic fans in a side mount configuration leads to very little forced air flow from movement and when the hydraulic fans kick in they can use up to 75hp from the engine has anybody ever thought of a air deflector on the side of the coach to force some air through the rads? JUST A THOUGHT. This may minimize fan usage and free up the engine more cruising down the highway. Air is free.


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Old 04-12-2020, 03:13 PM   #2
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If you look at a Prevost the side radiator vanes run up and down and face forward...so they did.
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Old 04-12-2020, 03:31 PM   #3
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This is possibly one reason for low fuel mileage.
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Old 04-12-2020, 03:50 PM   #4
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Would not want anything sticking out of the side of the coach. Pitched vertical louver should help, just might have to clean the radiator more often.
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Old 04-12-2020, 06:46 PM   #5
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Over the years on this forum , someone will come up with a deflector facing forward to force more air -- Apparently that didn`t work to well -- Never heard anything else from them -- Probably because of the rain water & snow packing the air intake -- Bill Willard
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Old 04-13-2020, 07:59 AM   #6
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Just a thought. I am going to mock something up. Pictures to follow.


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Old 04-13-2020, 08:05 AM   #7
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That fan doesn't demand nearly the load you are fearing. If it required 75 HP your hydraulic fluid temperature would be going thru the roof in pretty short order. A 75 HP ELECTRIC motor is about the size of a grease barrel, or larger. There is no way to get that kind of sustained power from a motor as small as the hydraulic motor on your engine fan, or from your hydraulic pump either, for that matter. If you saw that number in print, I would expect a missing decimal point, as 7 ˝ HP would be an overkill. One to three might be more what I would expect to see.

But that aside, your thoughts are good. I've always felt that the air flow dynamics of a side radiator would actually be better than for a rear one. I would expect the draft produced when traveling down the highway to produce a low pressure area behind the coach that the engine fan would have to overcome over what it would need to do with the side radiator. So in my opinion, you have the better of the two designs.

I think I wish there was an indicator of fan RPM available in the cockpit to know what it is really doing. But I suspect that your fan is not running on high, very often. It really shouldn't be. Your coach should have been designed so that the fan on high, with outside temperatures well over 100 degrees, and the road demanding sustained high HP production, should result in engine and transmission operating temperatures within design specifications. The cooling demand in cooler conditions and on level ground should never require the fan to run on high as long as the control system (wax valve?) is operating correctly. I would be surprised if you would be able to measure the drop in MPG from operating your fan. You don't say what make, model or vintage your coach is, but if it came off of the Monaco line, and if it's late-2000's or earlier, they did a really good job of designing their coaches and their drivetrains. They weren't perfect, but they sure were good.
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Old 04-13-2020, 08:20 AM   #8
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Joe,

I believe your coach is fairly new to you, but not sure. We live the desert SW, and it gets hot. In August it's not uncommon to see 115, and I've seen low 120's.
Our side radiator Windsor has no problems with those temperatures. I seldom hear the fan on high and the temperature gauge is almost always in the low 190's.

We run the generator so we can have the roof airs on, and we consistently get 8-8.5 over the long haul. Even on the steep 6% grades to get out of the valley, we have plenty of power. If the fan was going to run on high and steal power, that's where it's going to happen.

So my point is, I'm curious what you do, but don't overthink this.
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Old 04-13-2020, 08:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K7JV View Post
That fan doesn't demand nearly the load you are fearing. If it required 75 HP your hydraulic fluid temperature would be going thru the roof in pretty short order. A 75 HP ELECTRIC motor is about the size of a grease barrel, or larger. There is no way to get that kind of sustained power from a motor as small as the hydraulic motor on your engine fan, or from your hydraulic pump either, for that matter. If you saw that number in print, I would expect a missing decimal point, as 7 ˝ HP would be an overkill. One to three might be more what I would expect to see.

But that aside, your thoughts are good. I've always felt that the air flow dynamics of a side radiator would actually be better than for a rear one. I would expect the draft produced when traveling down the highway to produce a low pressure area behind the coach that the engine fan would have to overcome over what it would need to do with the side radiator. So in my opinion, you have the better of the two designs.

I think I wish there was an indicator of fan RPM available in the cockpit to know what it is really doing. But I suspect that your fan is not running on high, very often. It really shouldn't be. Your coach should have been designed so that the fan on high, with outside temperatures well over 100 degrees, and the road demanding sustained high HP production, should result in engine and transmission operating temperatures within design specifications. The cooling demand in cooler conditions and on level ground should never require the fan to run on high as long as the control system (wax valve?) is operating correctly. I would be surprised if you would be able to measure the drop in MPG from operating your fan. You don't say what make, model or vintage your coach is, but if it came off of the Monaco line, and if it's late-2000's or earlier, they did a really good job of designing their coaches and their drivetrains. They weren't perfect, but they sure were good.

Coach is a 1996 Monaco Signature with a 450hp Cummins and Allison 6 speed. The only reason I am on this kick is I had a wax valve problem (lines were crossed from factory , jammed the wax valve , so it ran the fans in full default all the time) When i finally found Source Engineering Scott informed me of the 75hp draw (2 hydraulic fan pumps in default mode). He got me a new wax valve and we figured out the line problem. 1 mpg better after the repair. He also had me fabricate new rad shrouding and I gained another 1/2 mpg. So this is why I think adding some air pressure from an external source would not be a bad thing. Its more of a challenge than a necessity. The old girl is getting 9mpg if you drive it nice and have no trailer in tow. On a round trip to Fort Myers with 24ft car hauler in tow (approx 46.000lbs total) i am getting 7.5mpg. Like I said just a challenge to see what happens.


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Old 04-13-2020, 08:40 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by windsorbill View Post
Joe,

I believe your coach is fairly new to you, but not sure. We live the desert SW, and it gets hot. In August it's not uncommon to see 115, and I've seen low 120's.
Our side radiator Windsor has no problems with those temperatures. I seldom hear the fan on high and the temperature gauge is almost always in the low 190's.

We run the generator so we can have the roof airs on, and we consistently get 8-8.5 over the long haul. Even on the steep 6% grades to get out of the valley, we have plenty of power. If the fan was going to run on high and steal power, that's where it's going to happen.

So my point is, I'm curious what you do, but don't overthink this.

I hear you. Are your fans hydraulic or electric?



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Old 04-13-2020, 09:01 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by joeplazek View Post
I hear you. Are your fans hydraulic or electric?



joe
I only have the 1 fan and it's hydraulic. I don't know what HP it uses when running on high, however.

I'm curious what you end up doing. Post some ideas and/or pictures!!
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Old 04-13-2020, 09:03 AM   #12
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Joe,
Yea the fans (should be two in your coach) do draw some HP. Like Jim said though, it should not be a constant 75 HP draw however, if your fans were stuck on high all the time that would certainly tax things. On the other hand, on high all the time would give your turbo denser air since it benefits from the extra air. That means more fuel consumption because your making more power, it is a vicious circle.

There is a power consumption chart that CAT, DD and Cummins use to determine HP needs with the cooling system and there is a combination from CAT that shows 75 HP but I do think that is a spike and not constant. Most of them are shown as much less than that.

Properly baffling the engine is huge also, good job taking care of that. You want all air around the radiators to be forced through the radiators and not around them. That in it self helps a lot.

Most of the coaches this age need some baffle repairs, it is just the way it is. The rubber around the coolers rots and sort of decays over time.

Not sure the free air idea works as easily as it might seem but if you were to put some sensors around the inlet and outlet side of the radiators, then construct your test setup and repeat, you might have an idea of the difference between pre and post mod that are more tangible and less subjective than fuel mileage alone.

I had a 450 Cummins ISM 11 in my Signature also and found it's mileage to vary quite a bit one trip to the next so it was difficult to easily see a difference in performance or MPG from small tweaks. Long trips, would be very consistent though.

Your setup likely has a duct temperature sensor in the CAC system which the DD systems do not have for whatever reason.

Give it a try, why not.
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Old 04-13-2020, 11:07 AM   #13
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Joe,
Yea the fans (should be two in your coach) do draw some HP. Like Jim said though, it should not be a constant 75 HP draw however, if your fans were stuck on high all the time that would certainly tax things. On the other hand, on high all the time would give your turbo denser air since it benefits from the extra air. That means more fuel consumption because your making more power, it is a vicious circle.

There is a power consumption chart that CAT, DD and Cummins use to determine HP needs with the cooling system and there is a combination from CAT that shows 75 HP but I do think that is a spike and not constant. Most of them are shown as much less than that.

Properly baffling the engine is huge also, good job taking care of that. You want all air around the radiators to be forced through the radiators and not around them. That in it self helps a lot.

Most of the coaches this age need some baffle repairs, it is just the way it is. The rubber around the coolers rots and sort of decays over time.

Not sure the free air idea works as easily as it might seem but if you were to put some sensors around the inlet and outlet side of the radiators, then construct your test setup and repeat, you might have an idea of the difference between pre and post mod that are more tangible and less subjective than fuel mileage alone.

I had a 450 Cummins ISM 11 in my Signature also and found it's mileage to vary quite a bit one trip to the next so it was difficult to easily see a difference in performance or MPG from small tweaks. Long trips, would be very consistent though.

Your setup likely has a duct temperature sensor in the CAC system which the DD systems do not have for whatever reason.

Give it a try, why not.
Windecker

You do make a good point on the vicious circle,, I know when my fans were in default high mode the engine never ran above 180f and lots of times 170f,,, way too cold in my thoughts. Now i get 185f to 190f cruising and brushes 200f on long grades and thats when i would assume the fans are on high mode. I do have a coiled sensor on the frame engine side of the rads. What did you say thats for?


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Old 04-13-2020, 03:17 PM   #14
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Joe,
Not sure what the coiled sensor is you are talking about but what I had mentioned is that the Cummins ISM-11 normally has a temperature sensor in the CAC (Charge Air Cooler) ducting to help with proper cooling of everything.
Essentially, when you compress air (which is what the turbo is doing) it gets hot. They pipe that air through a cooler between the turbo output and intake of the engine, called a CAC. It is an air to air cooler to help cool air going into the engine which helps produce more power (cooler air is more dense) and help cool the engine (hot air going in is bad). But, denser air takes more fuel...

I found with my ISM-11 the hotter it was out the better it ran, the better MPG I got and the better power I seemed to have. I assume because all the tire pressures would be elevated, oil and grease that is lubing various parts on the drive line are thinner when hot and that the CAC was cooling the air enough to help with minimize the added outside air temp.
Or so I want to believe

On mine it was just a little sensor in the duct but I don't recall exactly where or what it looked like, sorry.
Windecker



Quote:
Originally Posted by joeplazek View Post
You do make a good point on the vicious circle,, I know when my fans were in default high mode the engine never ran above 180f and lots of times 170f,,, way too cold in my thoughts. Now i get 185f to 190f cruising and brushes 200f on long grades and thats when i would assume the fans are on high mode. I do have a coiled sensor on the frame engine side of the rads. What did you say thats for?


joe
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