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Old 12-19-2020, 02:11 PM   #379
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So you bled the fuel lines till fuel came out around the injector nuts and the engine still would not start ! If the pump was bad how did fuel get to the injectors ?
Yes. Bled until fuel came out and nothing. Unplugged the ICV and it tried to run but wouldn't. I don't believe the injectors were firing at the right time due the the ICV stator being blown? That's my best guess.
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Old 12-19-2020, 03:00 PM   #380
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That would make sense ! so its getting fuel, but the timing on the injectors is off ! I think we have all learned a lot from your misfortune .I can only imagine how difficult this has been and how difficult replacing the pump will be!
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Old 12-19-2020, 04:09 PM   #381
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I wouldnít be worried about getting an RV with the ISC. Just know that the lift pump is a known issue, and plan to replace it or the gasket. If you look in just this thread there are a lot of guys with the ISC. And Bob Jones and I have the same exact coach as the OP.
Bob has replaced his lift pump as preventative maintenance and Iím replacing my gasket. The gasket is 15$ and you can replace it with hand tools.

Imo, I would much rather have an older coach without all the emissions crap. You wanna talk about expensive to replace. DPFís and regen systems....

I think what is happening to Frank is always a possibility, (worst case scenario) but I havenít read about it happening very often in my research on the ISC engine
Is the later ISC (High Pressure Common Rail) a better system and if so what year did it change? i looked at a 2002 Monaco isc 330 and a 2008 Newmar 330 also.
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Old 12-19-2020, 04:21 PM   #382
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Is the later ISC (High Pressure Common Rail) a better system and if so what year did it change? i looked at a 2002 Monaco isc 330 and a 2008 Newmar 330 also.
I have a 2003 coach with a 2002 ISC 350 engine with CAPS. My Cummins shop manuals for my engine seem to cover both systems. My vague recollection was that my 2002 engine could have gone either way but I have not seen anything earlier than 2003 referencing HPCR.
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Old 12-19-2020, 04:42 PM   #383
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Is the later ISC (High Pressure Common Rail) a better system and if so what year did it change? i looked at a 2002 Monaco isc 330 and a 2008 Newmar 330 also.
I dont think so. I think it started around 2003 and ran until 2006 or so. And they used VVT turbos.
Same issues with ISBs with soot on compressor vanes
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Old 12-19-2020, 05:00 PM   #384
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If $649 sounds too expensive to repair a known fuel delivery problem on coaches with the ISC, perhaps RV ownership is not going to be for those that think that way...
I'm really sorry you just experienced a CAPS pump failure.
Fuel foaming and starvation is a known killer of CAPS pumps.
A positive fuel delivery system like FASS or AirDog eliminates that possibility, all for about the same DIY cost of a OEM primer pump.
If you ask me, positive fuel pressure, air separation and extra filtration is an absolute no brainer.

Fwiw, this is only my opinion...not trying to be brash.
But, 40 years in dealership and utility heavy fleet maintenance may have influenced that opinion just a bit.
To me $649 sounds like reasonable insurance to stop an expensive failure.

I sure feel for you Frank. If there's anything I hate is working on a vehicle under the conditions you have. Wish you all the best.
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Old 12-19-2020, 05:02 PM   #385
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Here is a thought for you Monaco owners. How about a pressure gauge on the line after the filters. You can then monitor the lift pump.

Frank...what is your schedule. Are you going to change the injector pump or let the mobile guy do it. When will you get the pump?
What temperature are you working in Denver? Its got to be cold. I feel your pain.
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Old 12-19-2020, 06:15 PM   #386
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Frank,
I feel for you man. This has been painful to watch. DW and I are looking at our first rig now, mostly mid 2000's DP's and I am a little scared now. Is gas really the way to go? How about the ISB or CAT's, do they have these issues too? Well sorry for the sidetrack, good luck getting her going, we're prayin for ya.

Chuck
Even reading this thread (while sitting in my ISC-powered 2003 Diplomat.... I'd STILL buy one of these if I had to do it over again. EVERY design will have flaws somewhere, the trick is finding the one that has the fewest AND also the easiest to find service / support.

Cummins is well known in the trucking world, so service is not an issue there.
Yes, the fuel suction system is a dumb design - but MOST diesels come from the factory with this type of system, and again MOST of them would benefit from a pressure (lift pump) system instead. But adding a lift pump adds cost and complexity, things that manufacturers are loathe to do if they can save the money instead.

By and large, that is pretty much the only major design issue with the ISC, the exhaust manifold cracking is another one, but is also not a huge issue to fix. That's a really short list, for what amounts to a very successful powerplant for RVs.

You wouldn't want the ISB, that's a smaller variant of this engine and shares many of the components, and while I don't know specifically about any CAT engine with regard to exhaust manifold issues.... They likely also came from the factory with a suction system for fuel delivery, rather than a lift pump design. Other design flaws exist, I'm sure.... But I'd take a diesel any day of the week for an RV.

I've had 2 other coaches (still have one of them) and they were gassers. The one I don't have anymore was a 2006 with the 8.1 liter engine and Workhorse chassis. The older one is a P-30 chassis with the Chevy 454 - so effectively these are two of the same family. The older one has nearly 200k miles on the body and around 60k on the current engine - the original engine failed with water in the oil at about 110k miles. This MAY have been a head failure, but it may also have been vandalism from the storage yard where it had been parked - We don't know, but insurance called it vandalism and paid for the engine, so I'm OK with that. We bought it used as a former Cruise America rental (don't ever do that! It was our first and we didn't know) but the 2006 was bought NEW and treated right for its entire time with us.

At about 50k miles on that NEW coach..... It blew one of the heads so badly that if you started the engine, within 2 minutes it was pumping LIQUID WATER out the right exhaust pipe. Not smoke - liquid. It was actively pumping itself dry. Clearly the head was destroyed.

What we learned is that a gas engine RV leaves the factory at about 98% of the capacity of the motor.... Which means that you burn them up VERY quickly if you actually use them. Diesels on the other hand, usually are using engine designs sourced from the heavy truck world, so those engines are actually FAR more capable than what they are being asked to do, which means they just last and last.

I'd never willingly get another gas coach, diesels are the way to move heavy things around.
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Old 12-19-2020, 06:53 PM   #387
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Ok I have been reading along and I donít want to hijack the topic but I have a quick question.

I have a 500 Ism do they have the same issue with lift pump and caps. I was looking the power plant over yesterday and donít see it but I am in no way a expert.

I hear a lot on ISC and ISB but no mention of the ism.
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Old 12-19-2020, 06:57 PM   #388
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What we learned is that a gas engine RV leaves the factory at about 98% of the capacity of the motor.... Which means that you burn them up VERY quickly if you actually use them.
Sorry about Fffranks problems, but I worked on diesel engines in trucks all my working life (40 years) and I am happy with my gasser.

You can over work any engine if you want to. I have a vacuum gauge that I installed along with trans temp and fuel pressure gauges on my dash. I try to never drop below 2-3 inches of vacuum, so the motor isn't working too hard.

I may be a little slow on the long hills, but I'm retired with lots of time, and I will get there.

Fffrank- If you are changing out the CAPS pump yourself, it's not too bad a job with a side rad, but sorry about your luck if it's a rear rad.

Will you make up your own puller for the gear? Pretty simple, just use the threaded holes in the gear and a slotted bar against the end of the shaft. Just keep the gear teeth engaged so the timing doesn't change.
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Old 12-19-2020, 08:34 PM   #389
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You may want to rethink having the shop install Caps pump, messing up the timing could be a whole new story. Best of luck.
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Old 12-19-2020, 09:08 PM   #390
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You may want to rethink having the shop install Caps pump, messing up the timing could be a whole new story. Best of luck.


I agree.
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Old 12-19-2020, 10:25 PM   #391
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Buy a barring tool and a decent gear puller, Mark everything, take pictures and be careful. You'll be fine.
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Old 12-19-2020, 11:08 PM   #392
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To me $649 sounds like reasonable insurance to stop an expensive failure.

I sure feel for you Frank. If there's anything I hate is working on a vehicle under the conditions you have. Wish you all the best.
Frank needs to do the least amount as possible to get it running and get it home. He can decide what to do when he has it in the driveway. He's in no position to be doing a lot of things in a storage lot 1,000 miles from home with limited tools and 30-40 degree weather. Let that sink in for a minute.
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