Do I have a BIRD?

[Norm Mac]

Thanks everyone, I am pretty sure I do not have a BIRD system, but now I will look to see if I have the IRD in the front power bay. If I find the IRD I guess that will positively confirm that I do not have a BIRD.

Thanks, I love this forum

[bruceisla]

Hi Rick .... you are welcome! You have an IRD. Here is the info for that Intellitec IRD:
R And K Products : INTELLITEC 0000629120 ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY [0000629120] - $49.97, Reviews

If you hang a meter between the 2 big connectors (DC scale) on the solenoid while the engine is running, and it reads any DC voltage (probably in the 1 to 2 volt range) the solenoid is not picked. If it reads zero, the 2 sides are equal and connected together by the picked solenoid. I had a solenoid fail ... not unusual. About $50 though ... If I remember correctly, the purple wire is the pick line and should be about 12.5 volts when active.

[Gorlininc]

Hi Bruce
Here's what I found. In the battery bay is my IRD and iso relay . It looks like my IRD failed. That's what caused my alternator voltage to drop. The IRD failed and the frige was draining the house batteries. When the house batteries hit approx 11volts the IRD kicked it and put a big drain on the chassis batteries and the alternator. Once they charged up. Everything was fine. On my next trip I checked the house batteries voltage while the engine was running. They were not being charged. I tested my booster switch. It activated the iso relay in the battery bay.
What's strange is there is a AUX starter relay in my front bay under the driver seat on the big power board. I have no idea what that is for. It's labeled on the board aux starter relay. But the switch controls the one in the battery bay.
I ordered a diesel BIRD system today which I will install where the IRD is now. This way it should charge my batteries by alternator or inverter power. I checked the isolator relay and it seems to work fine. Does that sound like it will work?
I also was looking for the salesman relays. Any ideas where to look for them? Thanks for your help. Rick

[kgpick]

Hi There,
i don't mean to but in but I am having a similar problem. I have a 2005 HR Admiral 30PDD on a P32 Workhorse chassis. I purchase it in November of 2012 and have made a few short trips and the house batteries have always been charged well on arrival. This past weekend I noticed the house batteries discharging steadily as we traveled and today found the charge solenoid in the outside roadside electrical box. The solenoid is not being activated when the engine is running so the alternator is not charging the house batteries. I can engage the solenoid with a jumper and it kicks in and does its job. I cannot find a fuse for it so does anyone have a suggestion. I am still learning every day on this guy and know very little about it so far. Is there a fuse or breaker or am I totally barking up the wrong tree?
Glenn

[Gorlininc]

The relay is activated by a module. It's a black box, if the house batteries only charged while you drive then you have an IRD. follow the wires from the coil on the relay and the IRD isn't far away.
The IRD is a device that measures the voltage on the chassis batteries. With the ignition on and voltage above 13.5 volts on the chassis batteries, it will kick in the relay after 2.5 minutes. If a big load comes on the chassis batteries the relay will drop out.
If after a few minutes the relay doesn't kick in then your IRD is probably bad. There maybe a fuse on the ignition wire to the IRD. it's the purple wire. If you can check to see if it has 13v on it, then you would know if the fuse is good.
I hope this helps.
Rick.

[kgpick]

Thanks Rick,
I'll take another look tomorrow and maybe find the IRD and maybe the fuse wire.
Glenn

[bruceisla]

Originally Posted by Gorlininc

Hi Bruce
Here's what I found. In the battery bay is my IRD and iso relay . It looks like my IRD failed. That's what caused my alternator voltage to drop. The IRD failed and the frige was draining the house batteries. When the house batteries hit approx 11volts the IRD kicked it and put a big drain on the chassis batteries and the alternator. Once they charged up. Everything was fine. On my next trip I checked the house batteries voltage while the engine was running. They were not being charged. I tested my booster switch. It activated the iso relay in the battery bay.
What's strange is there is a AUX starter relay in my front bay under the driver seat on the big power board. I have no idea what that is for. It's labeled on the board aux starter relay. But the switch controls the one in the battery bay.
I ordered a diesel BIRD system today which I will install where the IRD is now. This way it should charge my batteries by alternator or inverter power. I checked the isolator relay and it seems to work fine. Does that sound like it will work?
I also was looking for the salesman relays. Any ideas where to look for them? Thanks for your help. Rick

Hi Rick, mine doesn't have salesman switches or relays so maybe someone else can point you to them. I have marine style battery disconnect switches in each battery bay.

You may want to read one of my old threads ... it has a few links to schematics and write-ups. For me, due to my solar panels, I decided use of the BIRD was not in my best interest and that a 110vac battery trickle charger for the chassis and the solar panel (plus inverter/charger when on shore power) for the house batteries were better. Heres the link:
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f54/yet-a...-s-145873.html

I have some changes to my RV that make my systems different from the norm.
1) 110vac (only) residential hot water heater and 2) 110vac (only) residential reefer. My 12vdc draw is therefore pretty small and the solar panel keeps up with minor parasitic draw on the house batteries when RV is stored. The chassis batteries stay charged in storage for a long time without charging ... apparently they have no/very little parasitic draw.

[Gorlininc]

Hi Bruce.

I also have the marine style cut-off switches. One for the house batteries (bats) and one for chassis bats.
To my knowledge all coaches have a switch by the door. It's a momentary switch. Salesmen used them to shut the MH off when leaving, after showing the MH that was for sale. If you hit the switch again, it turned all 12v power on. The relay on my diplomat is on the printed circuit board in the front bay under the driver seat. Someone may have removed yours.

You have a 120v water heater. So when you are not plugged in, no hot water, right? I'm usually plugged in also so I guess it wouldn't bother me too much.

I plan on camping in state parks this year so I want to put in a solar system.
I did buy the BIRD diesel system. I feel with my electrical background I can make it work. I want my batteries charging when plugged in or on the road with the alternator. I'll build a small control panel that will control the solar panel and the BIRD. A couple of relays and it will work fine.

Regarding your BIRD. I can tell you, if you had a 6v relay in a 12v system, it's not only about ohms. If a 6v relay gets 12v at the same ohms, the watts are double at 12v. This is twice the heat and will cause the coil to overheat and internally short. You still may see 2 ohms but it will blow fuses.

So Bruce, when you are on the road your solar panel keeps your house batteries charged. When you are camping, how do you charge your chassis batteries? Does the solar panel do them all? I'm courteous how yours are hooked up.

Thanks for getting back to me, your comments are always appreciated
Rick

[bruceisla]

Originally Posted by Gorlininc

Hi Bruce.

I also have the marine style cut-off switches. One for the house batteries (bats) and one for chassis bats.
To my knowledge all coaches have a switch by the door. It's a momentary switch. Salesmen used them to shut the MH off when leaving, after showing the MH that was for sale. If you hit the switch again, it turned all 12v power on. The relay on my diplomat is on the printed circuit board in the front bay under the driver seat. Someone may have removed yours.

You have a 120v water heater. So when you are not plugged in, no hot water, right? I'm usually plugged in also so I guess it wouldn't bother me too much.

I plan on camping in state parks this year so I want to put in a solar system.
I did buy the BIRD diesel system. I feel with my electrical background I can make it work. I want my batteries charging when plugged in or on the road with the alternator. I'll build a small control panel that will control the solar panel and the BIRD. A couple of relays and it will work fine.

Regarding your BIRD. I can tell you, if you had a 6v relay in a 12v system, it's not only about ohms. If a 6v relay gets 12v at the same ohms, the watts are double at 12v. This is twice the heat and will cause the coil to overheat and internally short. You still may see 2 ohms but it will blow fuses.

So Bruce, when you are on the road your solar panel keeps your house batteries charged. When you are camping, how do you charge your chassis batteries? Does the solar panel do them all? I'm courteous how yours are hooked up.

Thanks for getting back to me, your comments are always appreciated
Rick

Nope ... in 1997 (built in late 1996) the Endeavor was delivered without a salesman switch. None illustrated on wiring diagram and no relays are installed. In 1997 the buyer was expected to do some manual labor and they expected the salesman to also do a little work.

Hot water is available by running the genset ... but mostly not an issue.

The original BIRD, like mine, (before Diesel 2), used a 6vdc relay that picked with 12vdc but held with about 4vdc (the BIRD shifted voltage after a delay). They (Intellitec) have since changed (with the Diesel 2) to 12vdc pick and hold. The problem you may encounter is whether your relay is continuous duty or of sufficient quality to endure long hold cycles. If you look thru the links to the various IRD/BIRD versions you will see they not only changed BIRDs but also changed relays. The Diesel 2 with a continuous duty solenoid seems to be reliable .... but expensive.

I am mostly convinced a BIRD is a marginal design and, in my case, I don't need it. The combination of solar, alternator for the chassis, shore/genset/inverter charger is sufficient for my coach. If I needed to charge the chassis bats, and had shore power, I would use a 120vac trickle charger. The only reason I replaced the BIRD solenoid was that the same solenoid was used by the booster start circuit .... and I deemed that important (although I tow and have long jumper cables).

Most of my RVing is in State Parks with 50a power (nearly all Florida State Parks that handle up to 40ft RVs have 50a shore power ... can't comment on other states). However, my chassis batteries have never run down even without shore power. In my RV, solar is only on coach bats and keeps up with minor draw (radio) while driving.

[Gorlininc]

Hi Bruce.

I agree with you, the salesmen switch is a waste.
The solenoid for my IRD looks to be in good working order. It's connected to the starter booster switch also. I guess it could be a good idea to carry a spare.
I'm heading out west soon for 8 months and I really want to do some nature camping. That's why the solar charger.
Thanks
Rick

[bruceisla]

Originally Posted by Gorlininc

Hi Bruce.

I agree with you, the salesmen switch is a waste.
The solenoid for my IRD looks to be in good working order. It's connected to the starter booster switch also. I guess it could be a good idea to carry a spare.
I'm heading out west soon for 8 months and I really want to do some nature camping. That's why the solar charger.
Thanks
Rick

Enjoy!! In lieu of a spare, I would probably just make a heavy jumper or find a big alligator clamp (like on jumper cables) to bridge from one side of the solenoid to the other. Or, if you really want to spend $50, get a GOOD set of 40/50ft. jumper cables to reach from chassis to house, or house/chassis to toad, or motorhome to your neighbor !!

My Endeavor came with a solar panel .... older technology but still works fine. You can't run anything from it but it definitely keeps the bats up (here in FL).

What I like about our older motorhome is that it is not "overly" complicated. And, in my case, I have reduced "stuff" I don't want/need. Old satellite dish, both old tvs, old stereo/vhs and all switching is in the dumpster. We have in-dash cd receiver for music and a standalone medium size dvd/widescreen tv for visual .... that's it ... one tv. If I want to watch tv all day, I'll stay home. My philosophy .... not for everyone.

[Gorlininc]

Hi Bruce

Agree with the stuff. What use to be important, isn't so important anymore.
Simple is better. I'm a gadget kind of guy. Love making stuff work.
I'm heading over to FT Pierce KOA for the weekend. It's suppose to a great warm weekend. If your around the weekend. Let me know.
Rick.

[YC1]

Very simple test. Measure the voltage on the purple wire. If it is showing voltage the large solenoid should be activated. Those relays are failure items. I have repaired/replaced mine three times on my 08 Endeavor.

If there is no voltage on the purple wire then use a light jumper between the purple and one of the large wires. Touch them briefly. The solenoid should go clunk. If it does, put the jumper on and measure the voltage on each large terminal. At that time the voltage should be the same. If not the same, for example off by .5 volts then the contacts are kaput.

If you have voltage on the purple wire when on shoreline you have a
BIRD of some sort. Mine is inside the front run bay as shown in the previous picture.

The purple wire is probably your aux start control wire as well or at least on the same post.

[YC1]

Here is a ton of information on various Bird setups. There is a picture of an open solenoid to show how they can fail.