Engine and Generator won't start with new batteries--did I fry something?

[Doug Simpson]

Thanks Myron and or Deborah. I'll pull the leads clean everything up reconnect and tomorrow or over the weekend see if that helps me eliminate some unknowns. I don't have a way to hook up to 120 volts--no outlets close enough. Doug.

[Doug Simpson]

Thanks Peter. I think my manual says that my inverter will charge house batteries first when the generator is running, then charge the chassis batteries. I have an independently confirmed that, don't know how I would. My manual also says that I should not run the engine block heater with the inverter because it will cause the inverter to shut down, which apparently happened. But I had not read this before I had plugged it in to the outlet that sits right next to the power cord by my engine radiator. So at some point my generator was on, powering the inverter, which was powering the engine block heater, which caused the inverter to shut down oh, I believe, based on it reading "DC Power Overload." After that, I shut off the generator. I the removed the jumper cord I have been using to connect the chassis batteries to the house batteries. I then restarted the generator. I then tried to start the engine about success, and funky things were going on with the dashboard, which led me to go and buy new chassis batteries hoping that it would solve the problem. But it hasn't.

I wonder if there is a relay or starter fuse somewhere that I've not explored yet. I looked at fuses today, all that I could see, but maybe there is something else I'm not seeing. Both generator and engine have the starters not powering up, which is strange, but maybe that suggests that they are not getting enough power because leads are dirty or something else. So I will explore that a little bit more tomorrow and clean things up to remove some unknowns. Thanks. Doug.

[RamiDav]

You do have 120v available , your generator .
If you have a battery charger attach it to the chassis batteries , plug it
into 120v outlet , start the generator , make sure it's charging and let it
run as long as you can .

I carry a charger in the coach and it has come to the rescue numerous times .

Can you describe what you hear if any thing when you attempt to start the engine .
A slow ump ump or chattering sound would make me think it just might be those
new chassis batteries need a real good charging . Poor connections and grounds
can cause similar symptoms .

Ray

[Doug Simpson]

This problem is solved with the major assistance of an anonymous benefactor (with an understanding wife) who spent hours with me on the phone today today. I will post more about it shortly, I am talking to my phone right now, but wanted to put something up so that people need not put further time into it now. Thanks to all of you who chimed in. Doug.

[Doug Simpson]

Mea culpa.



I didn’t have the battery wires hooked up correctly. Three times. Pretty dumb. Also, I had a bad battery-boost solenoid. And more than that, I didn’t have enough charge on the brand-new 12-volt replacement chassis batteries.


The last couple of days I felt like selling my rig to the gypsies. Had it been a boat, maybe I’d have scuttled it.



But with lots of help and insight from my Anonymous Benefactor (AB), I again hear the sweet sound of the engine and generator working, and I’m back in the saddle, ready to take the rig on another adventure—and I know a lot more about my battery system!


I’d like to give AB public credit, but am afraid of opening the floodgates of communications from dim-bulbed owners like me who overlook the simple things, and see big problems, instead of analyzing things in a deliberate way—troubleshooting step-by-step—as AB and I did yesterday.


Here's a recap, for the benefit of those in the future who might have similar troubles.


After a week or maybe ten days of letting the rig sit in the mid-40-degree Washington winter, I could not start the generator, nor could I start the engine. The house batteries were reading over 12 volts, and the chassis batteries in the mid-11-volt range (see initial post for that detail). The battery-boost switch seemed to work at some points, then not at others—I didn’t get much boost from the house to the chassis batteries. I did not know and my manual does not tell me where the generator get its starting power from.
I thought I might have either a bad battery-boost solenoid, or bad chassis batteries, or both.



Having never met a battery-boost solenoid before, I had no idea what one looked like, or where to find it. I knew that pushing the button at the driver’s seat was suppose to switch a switch that would jump the house to the chassis batteries, but that’s about it. Once I saw this on my dash’s voltmeter showing the boost.



But at other times—both just in this most recent incident and last year when I needed it—it seemed to not function at all. Weird.


I noodled around the system in the battery compartment, and figured the battery boost solenoid was the gizmo marked Tombretta 114-121-010 12 V, as it was the only direct link between the two battery banks. I figured maybe the battery boost solenoid was not working properly, or was dirty, and perhaps was working sporadically.


So I figured I’d jump it. Seeing two threaded posts atop the solenoid, I hooked one to the other, first with a jumper cable, later with a vice grip, figuring I’d either get the rig working or would either electrocute myself while trying. I got some cranking, not much, of first generator then engine.


I figured I just didn’t have enough charge—even with the house batteries jumping the chassis batteries, and it was time for some new chassis batteries. My Deka 12-volt 1000 CCA batteries 1231 MF were about 3½ years old—but warranted for only 18 months. They’ve been pretty good, although mostly we were traveling about the county, and hooked up to shore power and charging except when en route or occasional short bookdocking. So I bought two new Deka batteries, $143 apiece, $317 out the door.


The new batteries were fully charged, I was told, as they left the store. I confirmed them as 12.6 volts when I installed them into the rig—in the rain—that evening.


I connected them up (or so I thought!), tried cranking each generator and engine, and got the same I-ain’t-gonna-go sound from each. The glow plugs worked, but then no cranking at all. I wrote in the earlier post that both starters appeared disabled, and was concerned I had fried something. The llights on the dash lit up like a Christmas tree—the hazards and brights were on and stayed on—I had no functionality. The ignition air alarm went on, and stayed on, even when I removed the key.


Next morning, I went to the rig, and in the morning rain, saw that I had failed to connect the new 12-volt chassis batteries’ positive posts as shown in the photo below.

Now you might think that that might have been an excellent time to check to be sure that I had all wires attached—I think I have 16 wires going to 6 batteries—and you’d be right—it would have been a great time to check everything.


But I didn’t.



I thought I had found the answer to all my problems—the positives not hooked up. I tried starting. Same thing. Ignition would not go off, weird light display on the dash. I was ready to sell the rig to the gypsies.



But no gypsies were around.


Went back to the battery compartment in the rain with my flashlight, and nothing seemed to explain my problems. I cleaned all the chassis-battery leads. I hooked up everything (again, I thought I did—but I had not).


Later that night, AB volunteered to help me get going. I sent him some photos.
In the daylight next morning, AB and I began troubleshooting, starting with 12.6 volts at the batteries, both banks. At least this day was not raining and not dark.


We unhooked the negatives of both banks. Then we took both cables off the Tombretta battery boost solenoid, put them on the same post, and hooked everything up (or so I thought).


More measurements, more testing, the generator on starting after hold down the rocker switch showed flash-flash-flash, a set of three flashes, indicating trouble, but not explaining in any detail.


We did some more testing, which showed one side of my series-parallel house batteries like 13-point-something volts but the other side like 6-something volts. Weird. They’re wired together, so they ought to be the same suggested AB. AB asked if I was sure that I had hooked them up right.


At this point amid the clutter of wrenches I saw the wire that was supposed to connect two negative posts together. Duh. No wonder. This was the second wire that I had failed to connect properly. So I hooked the expletive-deleted wire up, tested the house batteries and both sides of the series-parallel system showed the same 13-point something volts (while being jumped with the Mini Cooper).


We hooked that up, and Voila! both the generator and engine started up. Few sweeter sounds than that of those two diesels!


Troubles were not over though. The engine alternator did not appear to be charging. Also the boost solenoid was not giving the same voltage on the two posts, which it should when actuated via the engine running. We got other weird readings, and AB suggested we have a bad ground—something is messed up—we don’t have good grounding.


"Are you sure you have everything hooked up right, like a big cable coming off the negative post of the chassis battery?"


AND THERE IT WAS, hiding in the dark corner of the battery compartment, the cable that contributed to this tale of woe—the third improperly unconnected cable.


Hooked that up, and everything was normal—except for the boost solenoid, for which I have ordered a replacement.


Takeaways:
· >>Remove the negatives before working with positives.
· >>Make a wiring diagram, take pictures, and label all wires before disassembling anything and before introducing error (I had done this a couple years ago).
· >>Post the wiring diagram or laminate it, or put it into a plastic sleeve so you can refer to it in the battery compartment, even on dark-and-stormy nights.
· >>Compare whatever you’ve hooked up thereafter with what worked before (the photos and wiring diagram), and ensure that all cables are present and accounted for, not hiding in plain sight (this is did not do).
· >> When in doubt, replace your battery-boost solenoid. AB says do this every time you change oil filters.
· >>Make sure your batteries have full charge, even if new. Mine at 12.6 new might have been just a surface charge, rapidly depleted, although with the later-discovered disconnected ground, it’s hard to say. But jumping the batteries to the car helped eliminate that unknown.
· >>Make sure you have a handy voltmeter, jumper cables, alligator clip wire handy.
· >>Make sure contacts/cables are clean like a shiny new penny.
· >>Get adequate lighting in the battery compartment. A headlight is helpful. Fixed lights even better—but they need to be on their own battery because you’ll not have batteries hooked up at times. Walmart has puck lights for a few bucks—they might have saved me from these troubles.


So I am up and running—thanks AB!—you know who you are—I really appreciate your selfless assistance of a fellow human with no expectation of anything in return other than the satisfaction of helping another person. If we all helped others in this way, the world would be a better place.


This is a long write-up, but hopefully I have thrown enough search terms or information that somebody can benefit from my bad experience that turned out good, and from AB’s skills and helpfulness.


Doug

[RamiDav]

Doug , that is a great post . I know that warm feeling when you
finally get something fixed . I also know the other feeling of
sick in the pit of your stomach because you know you have just
destroyed the whole thing , and the panic , and what will I tell her .
Surely I can blame this on someone else ?

I have an idea who AB is , good job both of you .

BTW take pictures next time

Ray & Marilyn

[shootist]

Fighting the weather is a tough distraction. Some days I just won't do it.

[imnprsd]

You said AB gave you this advice: ">> When in doubt, replace your battery-boost solenoid. AB says do this every time you change oil filters."

With all do respect, I don't agree. In fact, that makes about as much sense as when RV owners say they change their engine air and oil filter every year. Both are "over-over-overkill!"

So why do they do this: I think is has to do with feeling good. I.e., some people, including myself, feel good when we take care of our coach. But replacing solenoids every year is ridiculous. May be "AB" was just trying to say, these solenoids have been known to fail often.

...And that maybe true. Why? Well, I think it's possible, people are not buying the right Trombetta, because they are just picking up what they can find at an auto parts store, where the counter person gives you what your OEM supplier put on your rig, which 9 times out of 10 is the cheaper Trombetta solenoid.

So here's some advice: When you buy the Trombetta, be sure you buy the one with silver contacts inside. You know this by it's part number: #114-121-020 . You can buy the other Trombetta part # 114-121-010) and it will work, but not as long.

Note: The "2" as in 020 stands for silver contacts.

Side Note: Some solenoids only have 3 posts, which means it gets it's ground from the solenoid mount against the wall. So if you replace a 3-post solenoid with a 4-post solenoid, then you just need to add a ground wire to the ground post on the 4-post solenoid.

Lastly, I would never hook a battery jump cable to a solenoid. If you are going to jump a battery, then do it at the battery... or use a battery post if one is installed.

Remember: Jump the red then black cable. And when done, remove the black then red cable. This will hopefully minimize the sparks... which can, but will not likely cause you a big boom when hooking up to your lead acid batteries. So jump Red first...then Black second if possible.

TIP: Don't forget you can also jump your house batteries to your engine battery by just adding one (thick) battery cable from the positive post of the engine battery to the end of the house battery... which is a nice trick if your alternator every goes out on the road. Why?

* Because your engine will die when you engine batteries go below 11V.

* Then you check-engine light will come on and you will pull over... and probably shut down your engine.

* Then you will say "oh ****" I think my alternator is bad because the voltage meter is reading 0V.

* But if you carry a 36" (thick) battery cable you can jump your house to the engine battery... start your engine... and drive on for another 45 minutes to 1 hour, which maybe enough time to help you get to the repair facility.

So in my emergency kit, I carry a red, 36" battery cable, and I have at times given this cable away to stranded RV owners who don't carry an extra battery cable with them. (Available at any Walmart for $12-$15)

Attached is a Trombetta solenoid and Intelletec solenoid and a starter relay diagram so you know your starter relay and solenoid are on the same circuit as the solenoids used with your inverter and generator side of the coach.

[imnprsd]

This Starter Circuit Diagram is for my 2004 Itasca "Horizon" 40AD which has a Freightliner Custom Chassis "Evolution Chassis" so your starter diagram circuit diagram might be different.

Here's another tip: If you ignition key switch is sloppy or over 80,000 miles, then you might want to change it out before it fails on the road. It's not expensive and if you search my other post you fill find out how I changed mine.

Note: #1 thru #5 are for the engine battery to starter motor. However, I don't have #6 & #7 identified at this time. Just know the starter relay is on the firewall behind my battery banks in my DP.

[YC1]

Before too many get excited about the "change with every filter change", that is not what AB had advised and he may have just mis spoke .

The point made was that it is easy to convince someone to change their filters, but to convince someone to change an electrical component or even a battery is usually met with resistance.

AB's recommendation was to change it every two to three years and a lot of folks would avoid some crazy misery as he did.

AB was notified about the slight difference discussing the solenoid yesterday but he has not responded back.

AB also advised the poster to get the silver coated contacts as well.

Jump starting a vehicle should find the last connection to be the negative lead and if possible not on the battery post. "Why", if there is a spark it is not at the battery.

Great post IMNPRSD

[Sandy Swede]

"TIP: Don't forget you can also jump your house batteries to your engine battery by just adding one (thick) battery cable from the positive post of the engine battery to the end of the house battery... which is a nice trick if your alternator every goes out on the road. Why?

* Because your engine will die when you engine batteries go below 11V.

* Then you check-engine light will come on and you will pull over... and probably shut down your engine.

* Then you will say "oh ****" I think my alternator is bad because the voltage meter is reading 0V.

* But if you carry a 36" (thick) battery cable you can jump your house to the engine battery... start your engine... and drive on for another 45 minutes to 1 hour, which maybe enough time to help you get to the repair facility.

So in my emergency kit, I carry a red, 36" battery cable, and I have at times given this cable away to stranded RV owners who don't carry an extra battery cable with them. (Available at any Walmart for $12-$15)"


That is a great idea, imnprsd. What do you think about a permanent install with a cut-off switch in the middle of that 36" pos cable between the house and chassis batteries? If your alternator goes bad, all you have to do is flip the switch to complete the connection. Hmmm, wonder what I'm I am missing here as that sounds too easy. Also, you mentioned connecting the 3 ft cable "from the positive post of the engine battery to the end of the house battery..." Which post exactly on the house battery (say there are two more house batteries)? Also, if there are two chassis batteries, does it matter which positive post on the engine batteries you use to connect the 3 ft cable?

[RamiDav]

If the alternator fails crank up the generator .
Then bridge the batteries if necessary .

To me replacing the battery boost solenoid statement was a little bit of
misspeak or tongue in cheek and he did say when in doubt .
Sometime all of us on occasion don't catch on and we take something too literally .
No harm no foul , hopefully the op is good to go .

[RobRoy]

Originally Posted by YC1

Before too many get excited about the "change with every filter change", that is not what AB had advised and he may have just mis spoke .

The point made was that it is easy to convince someone to change their filters, but to convince someone to change an electrical component or even a battery is usually met with resistance.

AB's recommendation was to change it every two to three years and a lot of folks would avoid some crazy misery as he did.

AB was notified about the slight difference discussing the solenoid yesterday but he has not responded back.

AB also advised the poster to get the silver coated contacts as well.

Jump starting a vehicle should find the last connection to be the negative lead and if possible not on the battery post. "Why", if there is a spark it is not at the battery.

Great post IMNPRSD

As usual

[imnprsd]

RamiDav makes a good point. Especially in the winter or long cold night...

When boondocking, if you run your heater all night, with or without a heating blanket, you might find you your house batteries are below 11.4V. And when this happens you might not be able to start your generator.

Your boost switch may or may not help you in some RVs. Maybe because your switch or the solenoid is warn out! So A Engine to House Batter jump may be needed.

Note: When Jumping I like using Jumper Cables over a solid battery cable. Why? Because you can "release" the jaws on a battery cable and you can't do that with a solid battery cable.

REMEMBER: When you connect a solid battery cable to a battery you are holding a WELDING ROD!!!

And because your alternator only fails every 80K-??? miles, then I would not run any more battery cables than is absolutely necessary.