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Old 08-07-2020, 09:45 PM   #1
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Installing a fan in the cabinet that has the breakers

My 2008 PDQ has the breakers in the closet cabinet and when it is hot out side 105 degrees plus here in Havasu the AC breakers will trip. During my last trip I put a fan in the closet pointing at the cabinet and they stayed on. I am going to replace the breakers and clean the AC coils. I am thinking about installing a couple of computer cooling fans in the cabinet to circulate the air inside the cabinet. Anyone done this or anything that helped rectify this problem?
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Old 08-07-2020, 09:54 PM   #2
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Never thought of that but it makes sense, since they work by heat, if they are already heated to 105, it would take less heat to get them to trip. But it is resistance causing the heat, so it also makes sense to freshen up the panel a bit since they are 12 years old.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:27 AM   #3
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I think the fan blowing on the breakers and the breakers not tripping is coincidental. The breakers should not trip from ambient heat. They trip from over current. Heat can build up from poor electrical contacts (the wire termination or internal contacts) but that is normal and expected.

If your breakers are so sensitive as to trip from heat alone then something is wrong with them (it). You can view the temperature of the breakers with an infrared gun (thermal imaging camera). You can rent one from Home Depot https://www.homedepot.com/tool-truck...amera/FLIR-i7/

https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA173839/
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Old 08-08-2020, 07:31 AM   #4
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Have you ever tightened all the screws in the breaker panel?
(recommendation: disconnect power first.)
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:06 AM   #5
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Actually, Mit12, you are right on. CountryB is right, that they trip on current. But it is not current, alone, that causes them to trip. They do that by monitoring the "I-squared-R" (the current in amperes, squared, multiplied by the resistance of an element or device equals the power delivered to that element or device) heating of a bi-metal strip that mechanically trips the breaker when it reaches its design temperature. A given amount of current will RAISE the temperature of the breaker sensing element by a known number of degrees. The breaker is designed to operate when that element reaches a specific rise ABOVE a design ambient temperature. If that element within the breaker is already at an elevated temperature due to hot ambient conditions, it will take less current to bring it to the tripping point.

On particularly hot days, especially with the P/S side of the coach to the sun, we will have to open the cupboard door and breaker panel door to stop one or more of the A/C breakers from tripping. On exceptionally hot days, we will have to add a clip-on circulating fan to the cupboard door to improve the cooling.

Several years ago, a friend did exactly what you are saying, and created an opening where he could mount a medium sized muffin-fan, and the problem was permanently solved. I don't recall whether he put a little thermostat control on it, or if it was on continuous, or if he put a switch on it to only use it when needed. But you are right on track.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit12 View Post
My 2008 PDQ has the breakers in the closet cabinet and when it is hot out side 105 degrees plus here in Havasu the AC breakers will trip. During my last trip I put a fan in the closet pointing at the cabinet and they stayed on. I am going to replace the breakers and clean the AC coils. I am thinking about installing a couple of computer cooling fans in the cabinet to circulate the air inside the cabinet. Anyone done this or anything that helped rectify this problem?
I have seen that, my coach has a/c vents in the breaker and electronics compartments. If I park the breaker side of the coach on the west side on a 100º-120º F day they may trip as the breakers are thermally tripped. I replaced the a/c breakers a couple of years ago which lessened the frequency. and I make sure they aren't west facing if possible. My QO breaker manual states "Each pole has an individual thermal-magnetic trip element calibrated for 40°C (104º F )ambient temperature".

https://download.schneider-electric....Ref=0730CT9801 Page 6 has the amp/thermal chart for various temperatures
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:31 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit12 View Post
My 2008 PDQ has the breakers in the closet cabinet and when it is hot out side 105 degrees plus here in Havasu the AC breakers will trip. During my last trip I put a fan in the closet pointing at the cabinet and they stayed on. I am going to replace the breakers and clean the AC coils. I am thinking about installing a couple of computer cooling fans in the cabinet to circulate the air inside the cabinet. Anyone done this or anything that helped rectify this problem?

Dealt with this for years on and off. Eventually the load shedding relay board went up in smoke inside the panel. The heat build up do to being in a hot closet with no circulation does indeed reduce the current at which the breakers pop, especially the Air Conditioners ones.

Breakers will trip at lower currents when hot. They get hot and trip. Do to our design and placement the face of the panel can get very hot indeed.

Opening the closet door on that side and blowing one of the AC vents onto the face really helps but does not quite solve the issue.

This issue has come up on this forum several times over the years and the folks that do not have the setup just never quite understand the situation.

Installing some tiny fans to vent the breaker panel was a thought to bring that incredibly hot air out. I used a thermometer to test the temps and it would really surprise you. Fans right next to the head of the bed even though small still make some noise.

Some folks were concerned about "sparks" or "flames" getting out the fan holes but if one can prevent the "meltdown" there should be no reason for flames.

That said, if the ems board goes up in smoke there could indeed be some flames for a short few seconds until the oxygen is consumed, one would not want a fan "fanning" the flames.

So I compromised. Removing the metal cover and reinstalling it with a few slim washers between it and the housing allows a tiny bit of air to enter from the bottom edge and then to escape from the top edge. I'm talking the thickness of a flat washer. Maybe 1/16 of an inch thick.

The ventilation along with opening the closet when needed does the trick. If the RV is parked so the rear is facing the sun I definitely open the closet door. Normally I do not have to take that measure now.

Hope this helps.

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Old 08-08-2020, 09:06 AM   #8
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Myron,

My multiplex board started doing weird things a couple years ago, and it took numerous calls to M&M and lots of experimenting before finally replacing the board. I'm convinced the heat was the main factor for the failure.

I now have a piece of aluminum angle iron that goes into the closet door track to hold open the sliding closet door that covers the panel. That and a fan running, plus the air conditioning running seems to help while we are driving.

Your idea of the shims is also a good one too.
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Old 08-08-2020, 09:16 AM   #9
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I used a fantastic fan thermostat with a simple variable resistor control for a fan to vent my inverter compartment. I mounted the probe over the inverter (see pic) and just set it to come on at around 95*. Worked great. the fan was just a 4” computer fan.

Edit I found the part number but it’s obsolete - still might find one somewhee

https://pdxrvwholesale.com/products/...ostat-k9006-05

Edit 2 $17!
https://www.wisheks.com/Fan-Tastic-9006-05-Thermostats
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Old 08-08-2020, 02:00 PM   #10
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Myron,

My multiplex board started doing weird things a couple years ago, and it took numerous calls to M&M and lots of experimenting before finally replacing the board. I'm convinced the heat was the main factor for the failure.

I now have a piece of aluminum angle iron that goes into the closet door track to hold open the sliding closet door that covers the panel. That and a fan running, plus the air conditioning running seems to help while we are driving.

Your idea of the shims is also a good one too.
Great idea. But the heat inside the panel will still build up more than electronic components should endure. The design of having the boards inside is fine but burying the panel behind a door that allows no heat to radiate is just not good for these.

A normal panel in a home usually has the panel exposed so air conditioning can t least cool the panel. The door would be decent heat sink at least.

Shimming the front panel allows normal convection currents to draft the hot air out. I still get the odd air conditioner breaker tripping but my AC's even though extremely well maintained can draw a bit too much on a warm/hot breaker and trip. If I just open the closet door during the day the issue is nil.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:46 PM   #11
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In my case the breakers only happen when I traveled. The If you think about it, All of the 120 v electrical goes up the side of the engine bay and with the added heat from the engine the breakers will pop. (bad roads don't help) My solution was to vent the engine bay. This solved my problem even when changing the breakers didn't along with leaving the breaker door open with a fan. My brother made me standoffs to hold the engine lid open 6". (pictures) Problem solved and I'm sure my alternator is much better off in a cooler environment.

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Old 08-08-2020, 09:46 PM   #12
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I use one of these to vent my cabinet where all the inverter/solar controller are mounted and it does a very good job of moving air through!

Completely automatic operation and thermostatically controlled!!

PS...we live in Havasu also!!
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Old 08-09-2020, 09:55 AM   #13
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For the life of me, I do not understand why Monaco put the breaker panel in the closet that is directly above the engine. The breakers are about 3 inches from the closet door and with the slide in the slide wall makes it darn near impossible to reset the breaker. Thanks for the suggestions and comments.
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Old 08-09-2020, 12:20 PM   #14
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I like the idea. I'm going to check to see if I can fit a small 12v fan in the cabinet behind the panel. Maybe there's a knockout in a convenient location. Yet another project for the list.
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