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Old 12-06-2013, 07:56 AM   #1
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"Moved"...Replaced Shocks and am now NOT a happy camper!!!

After think about my reply to a thread posted yesterday, I concluded I wouldn't get much feed back as the 35th reply to a day old post. So forgive me if I move it out to a stand alone thread to get more feed-back. Here it is....
On 96 Windsor had to replace a front air bag and since I was there decided to replace 2 of the Monroes on that air bags rearward position with Bilsteins. My first experience with "Jam Nuts", about freaked-out when the thread started pealing off like an orange, as I removed the nut. But since I hadn't put the nut on, decided there wasn't much I could do as the nut had to come off. My years coach required a special mounting bolt sleeve that I had machined out ( and then subsequently got a "correct size" from Bilstein ) with both sleeves I have a rattle/click when the front goes over bumps. Both the first nut application with no washer and continued when I used a lock/compression washer on the second sleeve swap out. Need to replace the front/forward air bag, have the shocks to also replace the forward Monroes but fear more rattles. The coach is new to me and I've put less than 50 miles on it....don't remember he rattles before messing with the shocks ( really I dont recall, but noise is enough that I think I would of noticed if it was there); took prior owner for a ride and he said "That Noise is new" when I pointed it out to him ( if I can believe him ). So what say you, who have proceeded me.....any input??? Thanks Paul
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:00 AM   #2
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Reply to my post by Adam Hunter

However I did get one reply to my post...Here it is for FYI...P

Paul,

It sounds like the Bilsteins are not properly secured on their mounts. Obviously as I am sure you already know, in order for the shocks to work correctly both the top and bottom mounts must be fully secure with no play. I am NOT a mechanic but you will not be able to expect the new shocks to function as designed unless the top and bottoms are "fixed" in place.

I am not sure of the front end design on your 96' but the new shocks mated with the old shocks are probably not a good idea - You would need all 4 shocks replaced to get the desired effect.

Can you post a picture of your modified mounts/sleeves? Maybe the members can give you some other soloutions for mounting if your going to try and do this yourself.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:14 AM   #3
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So now that I've moved!

One hint for DYIers...I got the shocks in position with a scissor jack (but any jack will do). On my unit the top bolt is fixed so it's easy to hang it from the top and jack the shock up till the bottom bolt slides through. Be careful of slipping the shock as it will pivot away and possibly bite you!!!!! Dont know how folks manually push it into position....it needs a lot of force!!!!

Comments on Allen's input...The shocks dont rattle when I yank on'em, but then I dont have multi ton force!!!!

Ride is not an issue as I'm not traveling now, except going to shops to get work done. I can confirm it dangerous to drive it with 2 shocks on the front as she about hopped away from me as I was breaking upon returning from getting my engine air compressor replaced (now that's a nice $2K job)

Nuts do hold tight even though removal ate some of the bolt thread

Mounting nut torque might be an issue....I tighten the bolts hard but didnt do a chin-up on'em with a big breaker bar. ANYONE HAVE A SUGGESTION FOR THE TORQUE SPEC?????

Here's photos of the system. On my Indiana built 96 Windsor (there's supposedly a difference between OR built Windsors and IN units)

Needs a B'stein provided a shim to the bottom mount and replace the top mount tube (or machines out the original tube) to fit the fixed bolt. First time I machined it, now have B'stein tubes (still need to press out the original tubes) to use when I do the front-forward shocks. I got additional B'stein shocks for the front-rearward shocks which I swapped out, but still have same noise.

Here's photo!!!1

Thanks for all help.....Paul R
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:20 AM   #4
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Did you try slipping the bolts into the new bushings before you installed them to see how tight the fit will be?

Edit... iooked at pic's, seen you did. Ok, any slop between bolt and bushing?
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:11 AM   #5
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Thanks for suggestions...FYI, there's no slop in bushings prior to tightening nuts or play when rough-house shaking the mounted bushing/shocks....Paul
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:38 AM   #6
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Back in the '90s I installed a set of Gabrielle shocks on a 1990 Volkswagen van. Immediately I listened to rattling and banging. Turned out the holes in the shocks were only a few thousands bigger than they should have been, thus the shocks were a little too loose on the bolts. I think it was a situation that the bolts on the van were metric size, and the hole in the shocks weren't. So I tightened the nuts enough to put more squeeze on the shock in an attempt to hold it tighter. That worked for a few thousand miles. I had to tighten the nuts a few times over the years.

I just went through the procedure of installing new suspension bushings on our coach. I was surprised to learn that the I.D. of the bushing is quite a bit larger than the bolt that slips through it. On these bushings, the nut must be properly torqued to squeeze the bracket tightly enough to hold the bushing securely in the mount. I suppose the same reasoning can apply with the shock absorbers.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa_Jim View Post
Back in the '90s I installed a set of Gabrielle shocks on a 1990 Volkswagen van. Immediately I listened to rattling and banging. Turned out the holes in the shocks were only a few thousands bigger than they should have been, thus the shocks were a little too loose on the bolts. I think it was a situation that the bolts on the van were metric size, and the hole in the shocks weren't. So I tightened the nuts enough to put more squeeze on the shock in an attempt to hold it tighter. That worked for a few thousand miles. I had to tighten the nuts a few times over the years.

I just went through the procedure of installing new suspension bushings on our coach. I was surprised to learn that the I.D. of the bushing is quite a bit larger than the bolt that slips through it. On these bushings, the nut must be properly torqued to squeeze the bracket tightly enough to hold the bushing securely in the mount. I suppose the same reasoning can apply with the shock absorbers.
You're probably exactly right regarding the bolt being undersized and a small amount of clearance making all that noise. (remember these rigs are heavy and the movement extremely powerful and is almost impossible for a nut to hold for long,if at all)

I had a similar problem on my motor home which had koni shocks put on. I believe they are metric --different than the originals. I solved my problem by visiting my local machine shop and had some bushing made to take up the excess clearance. Worked like a charm -- all is calm now. I could have drilled my brackets to larger size, I did find bolts that would have fit, but I didn't want to make that kind of change to my rig in case I ever went back to a similar shock that was originally installed. Bushing are pretty cheap and easy to install. It's been over a year since I made that mod and it is still fine.

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Old 12-10-2013, 11:00 PM   #8
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Were you able to find the correct torque spec for the mounting bolts? I don't know what your spec would be but on my Ford F53 it is 260 lb ft yours is a much heavier chassis then mine. I would think they would be torqued at least that much, 260 lbs of torque takes a pretty good pull even with a long handled torque wrench. When I replaced my shocks I didn't know the torque found out later, just tighten them with an electric impact.

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Old 12-11-2013, 05:45 AM   #9
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Back then Monaco decided they needed a larger rubber bushing on the top of the shock to help reduce road noise and this is what you are probably running into. I have been told a few years ago that Bilstein has these replacement bushings or and adapter which it sounds like you may have gotten now
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chboone View Post
Were you able to find the correct torque spec for the mounting bolts? I don't know what your spec would be but on my Ford F53 it is 260 lb ft yours is a much heavier chassis then mine. I would think they would be torqued at least that much, 260 lbs of torque takes a pretty good pull even with a long handled torque wrench. When I replaced my shocks I didn't know the torque found out later, just tighten them with an electric impact.

Chuck
Chuck,
What I ran into on my motor home was that the brackets were 1/2 inch steel and I couldn't tighten the nuts tight enough (even at a high torque level) to deflect the steel and effectively clamp the shock,to quiet the noise even for a moment. So the only way I found to eliminate the noise was to take up the clearance with a bushing. The bushings were just a slip fit, not pressed in, so they were easy to slip in and then re install the bolts, and tighten them down to a normal torque level.

I have very little engineering experience but I do know that the acceleration is so fast when you have the weight of a vehicle and then a wheel hits a bump and jolts up, the force generated is a huge number-- one that I can only guess how great, till a problem like this shows up and you try to hold it still by just clamping the ends of a steel tube in the center of a rubber grommet in a shock. Tightening the bolt & nut may work in a pu or car but my motor home weights over 32,000. and relatively speaking is un movable. so again when a wheel jolts up tons of force is applied- taking up a small amount of clearance so fast that we hear that as an annoying rattle.
Hope I've helped.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:28 AM   #11
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shock busings

I had one more thought that I wish I'd had when I had bushings made for my shocks. The rubber bushing and the steel tube in the center of a shock eye, can be pressed out and new ones pressed back in. I could have had a new steel tube machined to the right diameter of my stock bolt and the correct od to fit in the rubber of the shock eye. So I didn't know that when I had my bushing made. Also the better alignment shops will have an assortment of these bushings and high performance rubber or synthetic bushings. I might not have had to have my bushings made at all, possibly could have got the right one at a shop. However I wasn't having any success at the time finding them so I made my choice. Also People sometimes have high performance urathaine bushings put in instead of the stock rubber. These things can be done a good shop and are commonly done -- a person just has to know about it or have gone into the right shop, in order to work through these kind of problems. I suspect that Henderson's (in Oregon) would be such a place. I bet someone will tell us soon, other options.

Loren
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Old 12-11-2013, 08:46 PM   #12
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Thanks to all who have replied

Wont have time to pursue this problem (getting under the coach and measuring the studs to compare to shim diameter) till after the New Year but have found one expert input that bears rapid posting.
Scott Z at Source Engineering notes "the top shock studs are a non hardened fine thread 1/2" nut they are very easy to strip out. You will not be able to put enough torque on it to secure the shock, my guess is that the top mount is under sized or the shock is over sized it should be a snug fit.""
So more force is NOT the answer...better fit is the solution!!! More to follow after Holidays with the grand kids!!!!

Thanks again

Happy Trails and Holidays
Paul
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