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Old 10-16-2020, 02:39 AM   #1
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Re-engineering electrical flow in Coach - What am I missing?

So this started the need for new house batteries. Decided to go with LiPO's. Then ended up ungrading the entire electrical system, sound about normal???I met a pretty smart guy on the forum who has been helping me. He showed me some things and we ended up with more of a re-design of the system.

I posted another thread that has a lot of background information, as someone pointed out, if I break things down into smaller pieces, I will get more responses.
https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/dec...de-508680.html

Originally, the coach only had a 30 amp 2000W inverter. The power went from the transfer switch to the main electric panel, which sent a couple legs of 30amp power thru the inverter then over to the Inverter panel.

With the bigger inverter, why not send everything thru the inverter, then to the panels, basically making the Inverter panel a subpanel wired to the main panel.

See attached sketches, sorry, I did my best, not an electrician, I tried to include wire run lengths and sizes - so much of the 12v stuff seemed way undersized in the original design, (they saved a few pennies I suppose).

Please let me know your thoughts, warnings, or anything I may be missing. I am moving the inverter back by the batteries which will really help keep the wire runs more efficient. I did not include the monitors and peripheral components in an attempt to keep things simple.

Thanks - Brian
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:36 AM   #2
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What size inverter are you installing.

If the entire 50 amp feed is routed through the inverter it must be a beast to handle that. Also wondering how you will balance the load.

My current setup goes to the service panel and then two breakers feed the inverter and then back to the subpanel. There power is balanced at both the service panel (i.e. one AC on each side) and then at the subpanel.
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Old 10-16-2020, 09:05 AM   #3
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I understand your goal but you want both sides of the fence advice.

IF the converter goes up in smoke, you lose all your circuits. Currently you lose less than half of them.

Fortunately you know your rv better than anyone but what about the next owner inline? You never buy your last RV till you head to the pearly gates I think.

Rewiring can be quite difficult because most wires cannot be relocated easily.

I did not study your diagrams with a magnyfying glass so must admit I did not drill down deeply. I just know my rv better than most and still don't know where every J box is hidden. I found one yesterday I did not remember was there. I was not looking for it but doing something else.

These RV's have been thought out over many generations and models and may not be perfect but have a lot o history behind them.

Enjoy your project.
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Old 10-16-2020, 09:23 AM   #4
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You have made some pretty detailed and useful drawings of your before and after plan. You have shown virtually all of the important pieces of information to describe your plans.

The only thing I would point out would be the rationale for having two load centers (breaker panels). I will call one of them the "shore" panel and the other the "inverter" panel. The shore panel is intended to power the inverter (including both the battery charging function and all of the rest of the inverter panel loads), the air conditioners and/or heat pumps, the AquaHot boiler, if you have that system, the refrigerator (if you have an absorption refrigerator that operates on 120 VAC), the washer/dryer (if you have one), the dish drawer (if you have one), the InstantHot (if you have one), and so forth. Those are all substantial electrical demand loads. Lets say, for example, you have two roof-top air conditioners running. That would demand around 25 amps, and that would be a common situation for more than just a few minutes on a hot summer day. Twenty-five amps at 120 volts is a demand of 3,000 volt-amps (3 kVA), and is the total rating of your new inverter. Anything else, like a coffee pot, the microwave, a hair dryer, your refrigerator, etc. added to those two A/C units would overload the 3,000 watt inverter.

Let's talk about your batteries for a moment, too. A twenty-five amp load on your 120 volt system using the inverter would result in a draw of at least 250 amps on your new batteries, and that load would be there for as long as you are running both of those air conditioners. The batteries aren't going to deliver that kind of demand or energy for very long without shore power or generator support. I am actually not talking days, or even hours. We are talking about minutes. The 540 watts of solar will help, but won't be enough to make it practical to have your A/C's, at a minimum, running on your inverter.

That is why Monaco chose to go with two breaker panels. You are actually fortunate to have those. Most RV's only have the main AC breaker panel and the inverter loads are all on one or two inverter-mounted breakers and only power selected outlets for entertainment and convenience type loads and usually the microwave.

If you have already done what you've described, you will get a lot of enjoyment from that installation. You will just find that you have to learn what can and what can not be powered without shore or generator support and find out what works for you. I really envy you having those awesome batteries in your coach, and all that solar support on your roof!!!!
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:07 AM   #5
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If your inverter/charger has 50 amp 120/240 volt pass thru capabilities ( L1 and L2 ), then your plan is good.

That's the idea of the Hybrid inverter.
If it senses low incoming shore or generator power, it supplements it with inverter power.

I understand the reason for 2 breaker panels. They are already there and wired.
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:19 AM   #6
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I am helping the op on this install. We are well aware of the limits on the current panels when on battery only.

We were originally going with the way Monaco designed the system then evaluated the new feeds since the new inverter can handle the 50 amps.

My thought it with the new feed the ac could run with much less shore power feed because the 20 amps from shore will run the ac except when on startup of the compressor. The beauty of the new config is during startup the inverter will supplement the start then the low amp shore will keep them running without battery draw.

Of course soft starts on the ac would help.

One good point is if the inverter has an issue everything is down but some quick rewire would fix that, you could also use a set of 50 amp plugs near the inverter to bypass if needed.

Thought on using some 50amp plugs allow bypass if needed?
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:51 AM   #7
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Some Hybrid inverters will feed both sides of panel and you can run in assist mode to not overload say 15,20 or 30 amp incoming power. Simplified not accounting for loss or solar, pick 20a incoming on controller and use 25a last 5a are from battery, drop back to 15a it starts to put 10a back in batteries. But as far as I know ,no 12v 3000 watt inverter has dual 50amp pass through. Some are using the Victron multiplus inverter in pairs they will sync with each other and incoming sine wave . Check AM Solar they have many picagrams to help you.
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:56 PM   #8
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Just spoke with magnum tech support the MSH3012RV inverter, the one the OP is installing will only boost the out legs they are not rated to boost the in legs.

Also the MSH3012RV is set up for 50amp load per leg (pass-through and load support) this inverter was just released in the last year there are 2 50amp breakers on the side of the inverter one for each leg.

Magnum designed this at the request of RV manufactures that are moving to all electric and large banks of lithium battery's and smaller genny. I was told they where requested to get 3 roof ac units to run off a small genny (think 4000W) with lithium inverter start assist.

The more and more I have learned about this inverter the more I like it!!!
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:08 PM   #9
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Regarding "power is balanced" if the breakers in the current panels are not moved won't the power still be balanced per leg? There are still two legs going to the main panel from the inverter and the sub panel from the main panel.
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:56 PM   #10
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He is a good vid of single Victron install that will carry full MH and 30 amp service to 50amp feed work around with a switch or kinda pricey smart ATS .Notice all nice pictagrams from AM Solar. It shows four methods including half panel feed . So yes you could just use original feed wire on one side as it pases 50 amps. But a $20 switch, enclosure and and some wire grips you can feed both sides, the issue is/was using split vs single phase 30a vs 50a.

Its hard to find their archive so here. https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...C1YbLzdNrrT32E
All drawings here including powering half panel .
https://allaboutrvsinfo.com/rv-inver...30-and-50-amp/
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Old 10-16-2020, 05:11 PM   #11
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Couldn't edit above. Someone mentioned what would do if it died . Just pull the in and out connect wires. I would use split nuts or screwed butt splice/connectors and a lot of tape or shrink for splices. Heck you could solder them if you had to. I don't like wire nuts for above 30amps. I guess I would use the big blue wire nuts in a temp situation if I had to. An enclosure would be safest with some cord grips.
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 153stars View Post
Couldn't edit above. Someone mentioned what would do if it died . Just pull the in and out connect wires. I would use split nuts or screwed butt splice/connectors and a lot of tape or shrink for splices. Heck you could solder them if you had to. I don't like wire nuts for above 30amps. I guess I would use the big blue wire nuts in a temp situation if I had to. An enclosure would be safest with some cord grips.
Carry three morris connectors.
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Old 10-17-2020, 01:22 AM   #13
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Shootist - I just grabbed the morris connectors, great idea, did not know they existed, was going to use the blue nuts to send the power back to the panels. Those morris connectors are the bomb... -

I do understand the need to monitor the usage, Biljol has been helping me with this as much of this electrical stuff is done using a different language - Looking at a 3000W quiet generator that I could run vs the Onan. I believe I would be able to run at least one AC using a small genny and the inverter assisting as needed. Given the Dual 50A pass thru, I should be good to go by firing up the Onan when I need power - We mainly boondock and this should be a huge step up from where we were at.

jacwjames - I am installing a Magnum MSH3012RV Inverter - 3000 Watt/125 Amp PFC Charger, Mobile version Hybrid with Load Support, Dual Input/Output, 50Amp tranfer, RVC

Biljol has been a great help. As I understand it, this is the way the newer coachs are going with the newer inverters, no need to run tandem inverters.

And I am documenting everything with lots of Pictures for any future owners, (except the parts where a 10 yr old ball of mud falls into my mouth) pulling the 6/3 romex was a bear, I will say that much. RCS (Relocating Cables Stinks)

Thanks everyone - really appreciate the input - the little things really help!!!
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Old 10-17-2020, 01:48 AM   #14
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Absolutely oldcaster every bit of input is great. Had me double checking my assumption and reevaluating my recommendations.

I had not thought of the inverter failing issue so building in an easy bypass is a great idea.

Oldcaster and I are really doing the same upgrades to our sister coaches. He has been great. He is being the Ginny pig for the upgrades and his talents for the fabrication side are top notch. That is my week point.

Each of us on the forums have our strengths and the sharing of ideas and knowledge is whatís it all about. Next to DP or gasser I think lithium vs flooded is the most debated topic on the forums an I love the back and forth that takes place so each one of us can evaluate our needs and make informed decisions on our own coaches.

Oldcaster boondocks a lot, I donít, so our need are different and how we ultimately configure our coaches should show that.

As with any upgrade be it on your coach, your home, or car document everything so the next guy that is lucky enough to use your well cared for coach can enjoy it as much as you do.
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