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Old 06-21-2018, 10:37 PM   #43
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This is an excellent post. The pictures are great. I have been waiting for a post with pictures for a long time.

Using a program called Snagit I captured most of the thread and will repost the link many times in the future as this issue comes up often.

It looks like the contact posts could possibly be driven out gently by leaving the nut on but run out level with the end of the threads. A few gentle taps and the post will probably come out. It makes it easy to clean then and you can also give them a turn to make a fresh level spot.

On some other solenoids that were really bad I used silver solder to build them back up and got many more years out of them.

These solenoids work hard and should indeed be included in a bi-annual inspection if used a lot. Even lack of use can allow build up of crud so checking these is important.

Great post, thanks.

Had identical issue with chassis batteries not getting charged by inverter/charger. Also, nothing happens when pushing "Battery Boost" button on dash. Just ordered the replacement Trombetta part and found out that they are out of stock on p/n 114-1211-010 (mine) and no idea when they will have any more. I ordered the p/n 114-1211-020 Trombetta (looks identical) and is still the 200 amp continuous hold-in rated relay (important) and saved over $20.00 on the relay. I suspect the .....010 relay has the silver tipped contacts and the .....020 relay does not. Now I'll take the new one and replace the old one with it, then remove the old one and clean/recondition it as a spare one!! Great post here fellas!!
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:50 PM   #44
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Myron, my snowflakehas the BIRD and the Big Boy solenoid. In model year 2008, Monaco started using them on the Camelot/Scepter line. A number of years ago I disassembled the B.B. to inspect the contacts. Nary a scorch mark on any of the contact parts. Now that i understand how the "system" works, I havenít had an issue.

But part of the learning curve was throwing parts at it. M & M though that I first needed a BIRD, then a Big Boy. In reality I had same issue as distaff with the starting barter not being charged under certain scenarios. All good now. And I have good spare parts thanks to M & M.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:16 AM   #45
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Myron, my snowflakehas the BIRD and the Big Boy solenoid. In model year 2008, Monaco started using them on the Camelot/Scepter line. A number of years ago I disassembled the B.B. to inspect the contacts. Nary a scorch mark on any of the contact parts. Now that i understand how the "system" works, I haven’t had an issue.

But part of the learning curve was throwing parts at it. M & M though that I first needed a BIRD, then a Big Boy. In reality I had same issue as distaff with the starting barter not being charged under certain scenarios. All good now. And I have good spare parts thanks to M & M.
It was M&M that told me the trick about the pulsed signal from the B.I.R.D. to the BB, which had me very confused when I was trying to troubleshoot it. You expect to see the input voltage at or near battery voltage, but it is showing something in the 2-3 volt range. That was a huge help and not documented anywhere I have seen.

M&M was no help with the discharging starter batteries. That one was tricky because at first it seemed intermittent before I finally realized that it only happened on shore power for more than a day without cutting off the starter batteries.

It took Mike Canter to get me to check the float voltage, and then Magnum to tell me to test the input temp from the temp sensor on the battery. It seemed like too much work to run a new sensor and wire (they come with the wire moulded into the sensor so you have to thread the whole thing through the chassis), so I just unplugged it. I occasionally check the temperatures with an IR thermometer.

One other thing that made it confusing, during the period where I was trying to figure it all out the solar controller failed. Prior to that it was charging both banks independently, and preventing the starters from discharging.

So, to understand how your charging system works, you need to understand the individual behaviour AND interaction of the alternator, inverter, solar controller, B.I.R.D. and BigBoy, plus how they are wired, oh yes, and your batteries. Is it any wonder why there are so many threads on this subject?
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:41 AM   #46
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Joe, when you push the aux start button did the solenoid make a clunk? Did you measure the voltage across the small terminals. IF you don't get 12 volts across them it won't activate. If you did get the 12 volts and the voltage across the big terminals is not identical then of course the relay is bad.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:43 AM   #47
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Does the blue seas device have an input to sense when the generator is running.

If the generator and alternator, or shoreline and alternator are running you can get an alternator fail warning. Many BIRD devices have the input sense and will isolate the battery banks.
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:48 AM   #48
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"Is the Big Boy and Trombetta solenoids interchangeable?" I could not find a Trombetta solenoid rated for more than 300 amps. The contacts in a BigBoy are the same as the starter on my ISL 400 so 1000+ amps so I'd say NO.
So I do not have big boy, that I bought in my 03 dynasty is it a trombetta and can they be rebuilt like a big boy?


Is it this one?



https://www.waytekwire.com/item/8040...2-Bear-Series/


I will sell my not needed big boy. I find new for 285 so 100 is what I had to pay for the not needed one I have
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Old 06-22-2018, 04:46 PM   #49
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Does the blue seas device have an input to sense when the generator is running.

If the generator and alternator, or shoreline and alternator are running you can get an alternator fail warning. Many BIRD devices have the input sense and will isolate the battery banks.
Myron, NO, it does not have that input sensing device. When I am running the genny while traveling, I push one button on the Xantrex to disable charging. That fixes the "Alt Fail" light. Not eloquent, but I'm used to it.

Nor does it have any adjustment for changing the sensing voltage at which it determines there is a charging source. Its trigger points are clearly stated in the installation literature, and they seem intelligent to me.

This might not be the right device for a 12VDC wizard like yourself, who can tweak settings left and right. But it is soooo simple that it works for someone like me, who is not so picky.

For those of you reading this thread who do not know Myron, let me introduce him. He is a 12VDC wizard extraordinaire, and seems also to have electronics experience in depth. If you ever have an elusive12VDC issue, he is an invaluable resource.
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Old 06-22-2018, 05:43 PM   #50
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Thanks for the info on the device. I will pack that new knowledge into my memory banks. Someone might install one and then get the perverbial alt fail light.

I installed a similar device years ago and had the problem crop up. Turning the head lights on seems to cure the fault.

Thanks for the cudos Van.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:56 PM   #51
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Repairing a Big Boy

Actually, the ML-ACR does have 3 input sense signals to automate its operation and to enable Start Isolation and Engine Isolation modes.

You can wire the generator sense and the main engine sense up so if they are both running, it will isolate the batteries automatically.

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/reso.../990180180.pdf

I suspect whoever helped Van install his ML-ACR never explained that additional function.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:47 AM   #52
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At this stage you have two sources of charging voltage. The converter via the generator, and the alternator. This poses a bit of an issue with the alternator and can cause it to show a fault. However, the BIRD is rather smart and knows the engine is running along with the generator. With these two competing charging sources it simply turns the Relay off and allows each battery bank to be charged separately.
Myron,

This is a great explanation of how things work and clarifies many of the questions I've had about my system!

One thing that occurs occasionally on my coach... sometimes, when I am driving with my generator on (for A/C), the "Alt Warning" come on. I found out that if I turn on my lights or mirror heaters, the light goes out. What is happening? Is this an issue of my BIRD not being smart? Do I need to address?

Thank you,

Ron
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:21 AM   #53
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You don't NEED to address it, doing what your doing is fine.

Reading many posts about BIRDs, it seems that many manufactures do not connect the generator running signal to the BIRD.
If you have a BIRD, you can look at it to see if its wired.
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:27 AM   #54
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Ron, that is a normal occurance and my feeling but have not actually taken time to diagnose it fully is that the voltage from the generator/converter is a bit higher than the Alternator and loading that voltage down with headlights or mirror heaters is enough to bring it back down a bit.
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:33 AM   #55
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Paul, I now remember Van showing me his Blue Seas device a couple of years back and seem to have forgotten about it. The BIRD conversation usually comes up more often but since there is so much information now available I suspect many folks do a search and sort it out from that.

I just looked at the schematic for the Blue Seas and saved it again but with some notes for future reference.

It does have isolation features although not specific to generators I suspect it could be easily used to detect a generator running.
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:57 AM   #56
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http://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/do-i...rd-153008.html

Here is more fine reading from the "usual suspects". There are many incredibly knowledgeable folks here that have helped me gain an understanding of the systems.
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