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Old 06-13-2012, 06:07 AM   #211
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Van if you do a search under my name you will see posts on my roadmaster sway bar installation. It is not an off the shelf sway bar you can just buy. I forgot all the members that have had ten installed. I recall only about 5 or 6 Monaco members with them. It started with source engineering making them for the rr8r chassis and then a member here with a Monaco Windsor was a guinnypig for the rr8s chassis sometime last year and only recently have them available. I believe I'm the second member that I am aware of with the sway bar on the rr8s chassis. I do not know of anyone else that has them. I had to take measurements of my clear span of the h frame as source engineering first sent me bars that didn't fit. The rr8s chassis went about 4 inches wider in about 2005 on the clear span of the h frame. The rear away bar mounts to the top rail of the h frame with brackets. That connection point is very close to the panhard bar if I recall. The other members that have the rr8r chassis that have these sway bars swear by a complete different and better handling coach. I didn't feel any of that experience after my installation. It's about $2100 for just the bars shipped to you.
Here is the post that started it all:

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/repo...sis-86908.html

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Old 06-13-2012, 09:22 AM   #212
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Thanks bob. It was good read the first time around and hopefully benefits others.
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Old 06-13-2012, 11:39 AM   #213
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I have a 2000 Windsor 34' PBS. It has the 217" wheel base RR8S chassis.
I have added front and rear RoadMaster sway bars and Koni shocks F/R.

Maybe I'm less sensitive, but I don't feel any sway or wander. I pull a big 26' triple axle stacker trailer and it doesn't wander with it either.

Are there certain years that this is happening with?

Maybe we should make a list for people to list their RV model and if it wanders?

Guys with the bad handling RV's - Have you driven another RV simular in size to yours to compare the handling?

I think my RV handles pretty good but always looking to improve on anything!


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Old 06-13-2012, 12:27 PM   #214
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I have a 2000 Windsor 34' PBS. It has the 217" wheel base RR8S chassis.
I have added front and rear RoadMaster sway bars and Koni shocks F/R.

Maybe I'm less sensitive, but I don't feel any sway or wander. I pull a big 26' triple axle stacker trailer and it doesn't wander with it either.

Are there certain years that this is happening with?

Maybe we should make a list for people to list their RV model and if it wanders?

Guys with the bad handling RV's - Have you driven another RV simular in size to yours to compare the handling?

I think my RV handles pretty good but always looking to improve on anything!


CP
Hi Cory,

I don't think there is any rhyme or reason on the specific model of coaches except that the shorter ones are more prone to it. Nice to hear you have the sway bars as I didn't know many people that had them. How long have you had them and why did you decide to get them? Did you have handling problems before you decided to get them, considering how spendy they are? One last questions is what size tires, brand, and load rating do you have? Koni FSD or adjustables?

As for comparing, I don't have a comparison as I came from a truck and 5th wheel, but that was many miles ago. I do know that it does not handle correctly, and wanders. Your question is very common amongst owners that don't have the wander problem from the data I've collected.
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Old 06-13-2012, 12:36 PM   #215
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One quick comment to anyone listening. I've heard a couple of times that a good alignment shop would check the bushings for wear and play, and I physically witness the front ones being checked by an alignment tech with large channel locks.

As for the bushings in the panhard rod and the trailing links, there is no way the channel locks or trying to wiggle the arms or panhard rod will determine play in the bushings unless they have completely deteriated. When I discovered my loose bushing in the panhard rod, I had to use my full body might hanging upside down with my feet on the frame. The coach weight in itself is so much, that there is no way to duplicate it's movement by wiggling any of the links. Perhaps it's simple as poor bushing design, batch, or wear on certain coaches. Just a thought, but would be one of those things like throwing money and parts at it.
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:19 PM   #216
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Hi Cory,

I don't think there is any rhyme or reason on the specific model of coaches except that the shorter ones are more prone to it. Nice to hear you have the sway bars as I didn't know many people that had them. How long have you had them and why did you decide to get them? Did you have handling problems before you decided to get them, considering how spendy they are? One last questions is what size tires, brand, and load rating do you have? Koni FSD or adjustables?

As for comparing, I don't have a comparison as I came from a truck and 5th wheel, but that was many miles ago. I do know that it does not handle correctly, and wanders. Your question is very common amongst owners that don't have the wander problem from the data I've collected.

Crah,

I have owned this RV for 2 years now. My previous RV was a Fleetwood Excursion 40 footer. When I took my first trip with this RV it would bounce or porpose alot with my stacker hooked up.

I took it to a suspension place here in AZ. I had used them in the past for some of my construction equipment. Their website : www.spectrac.com
They inspected my RV and told me my shocks where the original Monroes, and where all leaking. They recommended the Koni FSD shocks and also the Road Master sway bars since I tow a stacker type trailer.

The shocks stopped all the porposing and the sway bars seemed to help the shorter wheelbase keep my stacker in line. Being 65' long with the trailer attached, I used to get pushed around quite abit when semi's passed me. Now, it's alot better.

My tires are all messed up! The previous owner must have had to buy what he could get. I'm getting new ones this week when they get here.

My current fronts are Michelin 275/70-22.5 XZA2's
My current rears are an off brand 295/75-22.5

I am getting 6 -Michelin X Coach XZ 295/80-22.5 - load rating J

If your ever in the Phoenix area, you can take mine for a spin for comparison.

CoryP.
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:28 PM   #217
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Hi Cory,

I don't think there is any rhyme or reason on the specific model of coaches except that the shorter ones are more prone to it......
Craig,

I agree. Seems that even two coaches of the same model and year can have different handling characteristics. Diplomat Don has a coach very close to yours and he says his handles fine after a few improvements.

I see you came from a truck and 5th wheel. I also went from a dually truck and 5th wheel to a class A. That was a big shock for me. The truck and 5th wheel went down the road, even at 80 MPH, steady, smooth, and straight. One thing I tell everyone who says they are thinking about buying a motorhome, even if they have already owned several, is to not sign any papers until you have driven it a 65 MPH on the Interstate with the big trucks. If possible, do it on a windy day.

Bob

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Old 06-13-2012, 10:45 PM   #218
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Our coach handles much better pulling our toad. It also handles much better when driving against a steady wind from the right front corner. It is not really bothered much by wind gusts or passing trucks. I do tend to steer it with both hands on the steering wheel spokes close to the center of the wheel.
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:41 AM   #219
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Van, that will not work...WAY TOO much friction. You have to realize these coaches are not 1200lb open wheel race cars. Bearings between the the 2 steel surfaces would be required to perform the test as you describe. Yes the test you describe would show exactly how much side to side movement is in the H frame. An easier alternative is to use math with the panhard bar length..which you have done in a previous post.

As far as your comments on caster creating "slow" steering...Yes on paper it will. Yes on a 1200lb race car it can....in a 20K+lb coach...the effect of the lag is going to be very minimal. Coaches are not that precise to feel such lag due to several reasons that are not in a 1200lb race car set up for road course or circle racing....IMO
I drive a 1700lb dragster...tons of caster..at 170mph it is stable and quick to respond to steering input...but it has no tail wag as a coach, it is not 12' tall like a coach, it has about 1" of tire sidewall which does not flex like a coach 6+" sidewall..etc etc...just tossing some valuable info about what works for some specialty vehicles is not going to work of an RV
Dragsters have to be the most over optimized and least representative of any real road vehicle. You have +90% of the weight on the rear tires. If you have a front diveplane to make the fronts bite - then yes, with that long wheelbase and weight bias it will steer quickly. I don't have any references on dragster suspension, but my guess is that the excessive caster is there TO SLOW THE RESPONSE DOWN. Indy cars put a different steering rack in on ovals vs road courses for the same reason (as well as completely different a-arms and steering brackets) - at high speed you don't need, nor want, a lot of steering authority.

Physics are physics regardless of relative sizes. The greased plates will work too. Hell, you could put sand between the plates and it would work.

My 30' 4 bagger handles better with the trailer behind it. Look at it like the tail on a kite, fletching on an arrow, etc.

I would bet that some of the wandering is the result of shedding vortices off the sides of a fairly square cut rear closure. If you watch a semi in the rain, you'll see a vortex form on one side of a box trailer. It will pull the trailer that way a bit, then the vortex will shed off while another one forms on the other side. This wags the trailer a bit. On a MH, with a ton of rear overhang and the "tail wagging the dog" syndrome, that aerodynamic feature could contribute to the wandering as well. Towing a trailer changes the aero interaction between the coach and the trailer. So does having a wind off the nose, because it disrupts the formation of symmetrical flow.
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Old 06-14-2012, 03:38 PM   #220
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I’ve been doing a lot of back-and-forth with my engineer friend in TX. He is willing to consider some alternatives, although he is of the same opinion that I am—what is missing both theoretically and practically is the second Panhard rod. He also has Porsche racing experience, so he is familiar with the “tail wagging the dog” problem. He has worked with some setups that are a lot more sophisticated than I have, so some of his thoughts tend toward the exotic. I’m trying to bring him “back to earth”. At least he agrees the problem is fairly obvious—neither H-frame is stable, front or rear. He also agrees with a lot of other knowledgeable people that the place to start curing the problem is in the BACK, not the front. But the problem and the principles are the same.

Craig, from the pix in your other posts, it appears BOTH your front and rear sway bars attach with a link from the sway bar end to whatever location they go to on the suspension. Is that correct? So neither of them attaches the end of the sway bar directly to the suspension, like with a rigid bracket? I ask that because many of the Class C size bars just clamp the end of the bar in a rubber-bushed metal bracket. The elasticity in the bracket supplies the necessary small movement that the bar makes as it is flexed. As you have noted, many folks swear by the anti-sway bars, and yet in your application they had virtually no effect. Any kind of link that connects the bars to the suspension eliminates all, or nearly all, its ability to contribute to stabilizing the free end of the H-frame. The bar’s ability to reduce sway is not compromised in any way, but it is not able to make a firm connection to the H-frame. Has anyone reading this thread had any experience with a sway bar that connected directly to the suspension of a Monaco H-frame?

Basically, everything I consider is aimed toward stabilizing the free end of the H-frame without using another Panhard rod, even though I think the additional P-rod is the definitive fix.

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Old 06-14-2012, 05:44 PM   #221
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Van,

I think over the years I've learned enough just to be dangerous lol. From all the reading I've done, and the threads I've contributed and gave feedback, I learned a lot along the way. Diagnosing a problem can be quite difficult, and sometimes the average person mixes words or feedback that is not technically correct. I've done that a couple of times and hopefully am more clear. The common mishandling complaint is that the coach wanders, sways, tracks funny, etc, and sometimes they are intermixed and an owner is giving the wrong information. I'm only mentioning this in hoping others (that don't know the difference) read this and provide accurate info. My handling issues, and yours, and Jim's may all be different. My specific problem is wandering and excessive yaw or tail wagging the dog. Sometimes the sway get's mixed in with that, and the term sway bar or anti sway bar can get confusing. (I believe the technical term is anti roll bar -that type of sway). I believe the anti sway bars I put on has a main purpose is to stabilize the roll of the coach. Basically like an airplane dropping to one side of the wing(sway). I also believe it has a small side impact/improvement on the yaw, but do to it's design-very limited.

As for your specific question, the front and rear sway bars are a little different. The front bars have really long links with 2 pivot points (there would be close to 0 assitance on the yaw) due to it's design. The rear bars are connected to a bracket that connects to the H frame with a short verticle link. I think the rears would have a little more assistance in the yaw, but very minor due to the massive weight in the back). I have installation instructions/pictures that I can upload if you are interested. I also did some searching on the freighliner xc chassis to see how their suspension differs, but could not get anything solid online. From what I have seen, their rear looks much different. Their panhard bar looks like it's in the very rear of the their suspension frame, and their equivalent of the trailing arms look like they mount directly to the house frame. This is all a little bit of a guess because I only saw poor photos so take it with a grain of salt. Also their design is not necessarily any better as they may even have their own problems. I think the focus is on our H frame. Somebody needs to get down there and video tape the suspension action while the tail is wagging. We shouldn't have to build a model as we have the real thing. I'm sorry but I must not have enough friends to help me out LOL. I was having lunch with one of my non RV friends today, and I just could not get myself to ask him to set some time aside and shake my coach while I'm under videotaping.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:53 PM   #222
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Craig, the posts of yours that I have read have been quite clear, and you obviously have mechanical ability. The fact that you have competently and correctly installed the bars and seen no improvement in your “wandering”, was a crucial piece of the puzzle. You have the right idea—the first step in solving a problem is to be sure you KNOW what is causing it. Wandering…constantly having to make steering corrections to keep your coach going in a straight line…that is the PROBLEM. And it IS a problem. It’s not because we don’t know how to drive a coach. It’s not because we are imagining it. And just because you own a coach that doesn’t wander doesn’t make it any less of a problem for those of us who do own a “road wild wander-beast”.

The challenging part, of course, is identifying the CAUSE. I personally have become convinced the problem is that both H-frames are unstable because one Panhard rod, regardless where it is placed, cannot stabilize it. I further believe that the original designers (Chrysler) thought the spindly trailing arms would perform the job of the missing second Panhard rod. I believe that the H-frame teeters on the verge of instability all the time, and that it takes only a small disturbing force to “knock it off balance”. As you drive your wandering coach, your continual corrections to return from "heading left" cause the H-frame to flop "over-center" and begin "heading right"...ad infinitum. As Jim said, if an external force (steady wind from left front or right front) takes out all the "slack", then the beast stops wandering. Just like Craig's sway bar installation that had no effect on wandering, Jim's "data" about steady winds gives you another piece of the puzzle.

Any time you are suspending a huge, heavy "box" on airbags which are intended to make it feel like it is "floating", you had better be supporting it on the most stable platform you can, because the "floating box" is always going to be working against you.

I listen to everything anyone has to say, and read all I can find. The only posts I dismiss come from those who consistently are able to tell you what is wrong with your idea, but who not only have no proposed solutions, but don’t even seem to have ideas.

To try to help visualize what I think is wrong, imagine a solution that seems impossible and impractical to implement—the front end of the front H-frame is trapped at its right and left hand sides between two “walls”, and cannot move side to side. These “walls” stabilize the front of the H-frame and the existing Panhard rod stabilizes the rear. Now the challenge is to find a practical way to accomplish what the “walls” do.

Craig, I’m taking seriously your suggestion about the videotaping. If I could get one person at the rear and one at the front pushing in alternate syncopation, the movements can possibly be made very large. If that were the case, we might be able to visually see what is happening. Hmmmm….

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Old 06-14-2012, 09:40 PM   #223
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We've expirienced wandering and rut following on two units, 1998 36' discovery and then our new Tuscany. What worked for us was increasing toe-in to nearly double what frtler specs were. Can't believe the difference.
Totally a joy to drive now. I've used tread gauge to make sure I'm not getting excess tire wear and none to date. 20K miles on the tuscany now.
Have talked to 2 other people have also found this to be the problem.
It's what worked for us. Hope if you try it ,it will also work for you.
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:55 PM   #224
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Van

My friend agreed to help me over the weekend so I will be videotaping it and uploading it for all to see. I was embarrassed to ask him but I knew he'd have no problems with it. I will probably get the video uploaded next Monday. So far from what I'm gathering is that a lot of people are following this thread but it will be up to only a few that will be able to contribute enough to possibly come up with a solution. And the main thin you said is right that there is a problem. I didn't spend thousands for no reason. I have better visible mods I could use that money on. A track bar is such a common known improvement on gas chassis. I don't think all those people were imagining they were having handling problems. As for the diesel pusher, I think we have some random data that is skewed. Why one persons solution does not work for another has probably more to do with what the original "true" problem was. I've seen pretty much every problem that exists solved in these forums. The wander coach seems the most complicated. I think you mentioned it doesnt matter is the coach is new or older. From what I've gathered the older monacos seem more prone. I will have to exclude all other makes. As I mentioned the rr8s chassis rails went 4 inches wider overall around 2005. Monaco must have done that for some reason and possibly some other things may have been done? Bushing types were also changed somewhere along the way. I know there was that thread on the new 2012 knight having problems but looking back at it, I don't know exactly what the handling problem was. So far from the sway bar threads and this one, coaches owners older than 2005 have stated they have the same problem. This is a generalization of course. Hopefully others will chime in saying they have the same problem. I know I won't be giving up at this point and really look forward to seeing the movements under the coach this weekend. Will keep you posted. Hope we get more members with problems chiming in.
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