Wandering, sway bars, alignment, ride height, oh my!!

[Rusty Kramer]

Van, I was going to do the rod end deal but was afraid they would wear and get sloppy. Bought Mikes kit after figuring how much I would have invested and the work involved. The flat bars might "clatter" and slap against each other where they cross on a rough road? I wonder if they will slip around in the U bolt but they may be fine. Hope they work well so the OP can enjoy his drive more.

[GoWestMan]

Well did a test run and I'd say there's definitely an improvement. The tricky part is that I also installed a Safe T Steer last week and didn't really get much chance to test it so it's hard to say how much improvement is from that and how much from my flat iron cross braces.


One definitely noticeable improvement was on the mile of country gravel I have to drive due to a construction detour. It has some hard pack gravel interspersed with potholes with loose gravel. Last week when I drove it, the wheels definitely pulled to the side when hitting the potholes and it was annoying trying to keep the rig straight. Today I powered through and although I could feel the Monaco slowing in the potholes, it didnt pull to the side and tracked straight through. Safe T Steer or cross bars? Maybe a bit of both?


On the highway, its what I'd call 85% livable tracking. Its not tracking like my car, but its also not seesawing like an old farm truck anymore.

All in all, it was worth the time and low cost. Back cross bars took about an hour and a half with figuring out lengths (60"), cutting and bolting. Had the fronts (53") done in less than half that time. No noticeable slipping or slapping of the bars, suspension actually seemed a touch quieter than before - less creaking.



Now if I could just fix the swaying I think Id be happy with the way she handles. Im not sure what can be done about that but maybe I can come up with another jury rig solution. Drives me nuts broaching driveway entrances - she still wobbles like a drunken sailor.

Originally Posted by NorthOrSouth

Im very curious too. Just got the front installed a few minutes ago and going for a test drive as soon as I can... https://i.imgur.com/Rb3MH96.jpg

[Busbreath]

I would carry wrenches and check every stop. Unless you bought tempered spring steel, you will likely either fracture a clamp or the metal bar where it is clamped. One of those bars breaking off could kill someone. Be very careful and check those often. Looks scary to me...

[GoWestMan]

Its a 30 yr old bus, I always carry wrenches

But good point. I'll check 'em especially now at the beginning. If anything the bottom bar on the clamps is the weak spot. Probably could double or even triple those up, or custom drill some thicker ones.

Checked with a local machine shop before I bought, but I dont think anyone in town has an oven big enough to temper the steel unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Busbreath

I would carry wrenches and check every stop. Unless you bought tempered spring steel, you will likely either fracture a clamp or the metal bar where it is clamped. One of those bars breaking off could kill someone. Be very careful and check those often. Looks scary to me...

[153stars]

Yeah thicker straps on ubolts with some big tack welds to straps. They make real strong square/90 bent U-bolts . Not something you'll walk in and get a hardware store. McMaster Carr doesn't seem to have one has strong as type I used for my old Rease WD hitch to frame. But rated to suspend 2000 lbs each.
We had to wait two weeks for 3/4 boiler plate every supplier is trying to ride out high prices and shortages compounded by tariffs. Plate rolled to fit inert gas generator is 4 times last price.

[Vanwill]

Originally Posted by NorthOrSouth

Its a 30 yr old bus, I always carry wrenches

But good point. I'll check 'em especially now at the beginning. If anything the bottom bar on the clamps is the weak spot. Probably could double or even triple those up, or custom drill some thicker ones.

Checked with a local machine shop before I bought, but I dont think anyone in town has an oven big enough to temper the steel unfortunately.

Don't worry about the bars breaking. They are almost surely 1018 CRS and are not heat-treatable. "Tempering" would only reduce their already modest tensile and fatigue strength. One-in-a-million chance the strength of the bars is an issue. As stated, I used 1/2" diameter bars front and rear for years on my 1993 Dynasty, but it did have Heim joints at the ends.

If anything, I think you might detect that the bars are slipping under the clamps, largely when you are "walking over" a curb or driveway entrance. Just keep an eye on the tightness of your clamps and you will be fine.

As for the "Walmart wobble" when entering a driveway, the only thing I've experienced personally that had any effect was to run stiff shocks IN THE REAR ONLY. I run "original" HD Bilsteins in the rear. After installation, I could detect no additional ride harshness, but the wobble was much reduced. With the same stiff shocks installed on the front, tar strips will shake your dental fillings loose. Apparently, as I hoped, the very stiff shocks in the rear have little effect on perceived ride harshness from the driver and passenger seats.

Think twice before installing anti-roll bars. One of the very knowledgeable original "Watts link crowd" installed them (before his Watts link installation) and reported they had ZERO effect in diminishing the wandering, and only modest effect in reducing wobble.

And if you have read much of this very long thread, you should have realized that NO shock change will improve wandering, except between the ears of the person who parted with a small fortune to purchase "magic shocks". The reason is simple--shocks do only one thing: they resist being compressed or extended. The smaller the amount of compression or extension, and the slower the rate of compression or extension, the less effect they have. "Wandering" is your coach drifting from one side of your lane to the other on a SMOOTH STRAIGHT highway. How much are your shocks moving at that time?

One additional significant contributing factor to wandering on older coaches is the very mushy, often deteriorated, solid polyurethane bushings used in the ends of all the trailing arms. Monaco changed to a one-piece bushing that was much stiffer and much less prone to deterioration in approximately 1999. I've replaced several sets of the bushings for friends, and without a pit to work from, it is a daunting job. If you (wisely) turn the job of replacing the bushings over to a truck shop, they will need to be able to deal with the fact that some of the trailing arm bores will be rusty and incapable of providing a press fit on the bushings.

Good luck with your experiment! Let us hear from you.

[GoWestMan]

Well, if the clamps do slip, my next step would be commissioning my pro welder brother in law to tack them directly to the lower arms I could do the helm joints I s'pose but I was trying to find a quick solution before our vacation next week.


I did do all 8 shocks in Bilsteins and I think I got the HD ones for all 8. I definitely noticed the ride was harsher but then again the old ones were shot so anything would've been harsher. My 'brain fart' thought yesterday was that the rear axle should have double shocks on each corners to reduce the sway. Wonder if that would work.


And yes Ive thought about replacing those bushings. Mine might be deteriorated from age but it shouldnt be from wear - the rig only has 39k miles on it. But man, I CANT imagine the pain of changing them out. Definitely something I would leave to a shop. Are they an odd size or is that something that any good suspension shop can source?

Originally Posted by Vanwill

Don't worry about the bars breaking. They are almost surely 1018 CRS and are not heat-treatable. "Tempering" would only reduce their already modest tensile and fatigue strength. One-in-a-million chance the strength of the bars is an issue. As stated, I used 1/2" diameter bars front and rear for years on my 1993 Dynasty, but it did have Heim joints at the ends.

If anything, I think you might detect that the bars are slipping under the clamps, largely when you are "walking over" a curb or driveway entrance. Just keep an eye on the tightness of your clamps and you will be fine.

As for the "Walmart wobble" when entering a driveway, the only thing I've experienced personally that had any effect was to run stiff shocks IN THE REAR ONLY. I run "original" HD Bilsteins in the rear. After installation, I could detect no additional ride harshness, but the wobble was much reduced. With the same stiff shocks installed on the front, tar strips will shake your dental fillings loose. Apparently, as I hoped, the very stiff shocks in the rear have little effect on perceived ride harshness from the driver and passenger seats.

Think twice before installing anti-roll bars. One of the very knowledgeable original "Watts link crowd" installed them (before his Watts link installation) and reported they had ZERO effect in diminishing the wandering, and only modest effect in reducing wobble.

And if you have read much of this very long thread, you should have realized that NO shock change will improve wandering, except between the ears of the person who parted with a small fortune to purchase "magic shocks". The reason is simple--shocks do only one thing: they resist being compressed or extended. The smaller the amount of compression or extension, and the slower the rate of compression or extension, the less effect they have. "Wandering" is your coach drifting from one side of your lane to the other on a SMOOTH STRAIGHT highway. How much are your shocks moving at that time?

One additional significant contributing factor to wandering on older coaches is the very mushy, often deteriorated, solid polyurethane bushings used in the ends of all the trailing arms. Monaco changed to a one-piece bushing that was much stiffer and much less prone to deterioration in approximately 1999. I've replaced several sets of the bushings for friends, and without a pit to work from, it is a daunting job. If you (wisely) turn the job of replacing the bushings over to a truck shop, they will need to be able to deal with the fact that some of the trailing arm bores will be rusty and incapable of providing a press fit on the bushings.

Good luck with your experiment! Let us hear from you.

[Vanwill]

Originally Posted by NorthOrSouth

Well, if the clamps do slip, my next step would be commissioning my pro welder brother in law to tack them directly to the lower arms I could do the helm joints I s'pose but I was trying to find a quick solution before our vacation next week.


I did do all 8 shocks in Bilsteins and I think I got the HD ones for all 8. I definitely noticed the ride was harsher but then again the old ones were shot so anything would've been harsher. My 'brain fart' thought yesterday was that the rear axle should have double shocks on each corners to reduce the sway. Wonder if that would work.


And yes Ive thought about replacing those bushings. Mine might be deteriorated from age but it shouldnt be from wear - the rig only has 39k miles on it. But man, I CANT imagine the pain of changing them out. Definitely something I would leave to a shop. Are they an odd size or is that something that any good suspension shop can source?

I would hesitate to weld anything on your setup, and certainly not the 1/4 x 2 bars to the trailing arms, if that is what you meant. Even if you meant welding the U-bolts to the trailing arms, I would not do that, either. If they slip, it does no harm and unless they become quite loose, they might still provide you a bit of improvement in the wandering. I don't object to welding in general. I do it on my coach often. My first cross-bars were fastened to tabs welded onto the trailing arms. I have restraint chains welded front and rear so the shocks don't support the running gear weight if a jack lifts a wheel off the ground.

Just try it as is, and see if it works. At very short intervals in the beginning, check your clamps for looseness or evidence that they are slipping. If they do, you can decide what to do. You are probably going to want to install the items made by Monaco Watts later.

As to the bushings, it's more a matter of their poor design and their age. Even when new, they were a very wobbly bushing. Over time, the bores of the trailing arms where they fit would rust, making it difficult (or impossible) to get a press fit on the new-style steel-sleeved bushings. I was able to do it because I have a fully equipped machine shop and lots of welding equipment at home. Before you are fully satisfied with curing the wandering, though, you will have to replace them.

Good luck and let us know how things work out.

[GoWestMan]

Well, after a 2000 km vacation, I can report that there definitely is an improvement to the overall handling and control of the Monaco. Again, its kind of hard to tell how much is from the Safe T Steer and how much due to the X braces I installed on both front and rear suspension at the same time, but its definitely better. If I had to guess, Id say 60% better from the Safe T Steer and 40% from the X braces.

In the past I often felt nearly pushed out of the lane due to grooving in the road, a passing semi, or a sudden wind gust, but that didnt happen this trip.

There's still a bit of wander, but its down from 'oh crap this is maddening and exhausting' to 'meh, its a bit annoying but easily manageable' I could finally drive comfortably with one hand and there was a stretch where she went about 8 seconds without any steering correction which is a world record for my beast.

I DO still need to find a solution to the swaying and porpoising though. We had a 30 mph cross wind on the last day, combined with super crappy roads and the beast was bucking like bronco and we didnt quite get airborne from our chairs but it was close a couple of times. Even so, I know that before any improvements, I would just have pulled over and called it a day because it would have been too dangerous to even continue driving.

Oh, and as far as I can tell, the X bars didnt move. There was one time at a stop, where the the front and back axles where at opposite tilt angles due to going over a ramp, that I could hear something quickly slip and I think a bar moved for a split second. Checked underneath and it was all good so I think the torque angle forced a bit of movement and then it stayed put after that.

[Dennis_K]

Originally Posted by NorthOrSouth

Well, after a 2000 km vacation, I can report that there definitely is an improvement to the overall handling and control of the Monaco. Again, its kind of hard to tell how much is from the Safe T Steer and how much due to the X braces I installed on both front and rear suspension at the same time, but its definitely better. If I had to guess, Id say 60% better from the Safe T Steer and 40% from the X braces.

In the past I often felt nearly pushed out of the lane due to grooving in the road, a passing semi, or a sudden wind gust, but that didnt happen this trip.

There's still a bit of wander, but its down from 'oh crap this is maddening and exhausting' to 'meh, its a bit annoying but easily manageable' I could finally drive comfortably with one hand and there was a stretch where she went about 8 seconds without any steering correction which is a world record for my beast.

I DO still need to find a solution to the swaying and porpoising though. We had a 30 mph cross wind on the last day, combined with super crappy roads and the beast was bucking like bronco and we didnt quite get airborne from our chairs but it was close a couple of times. Even so, I know that before any improvements, I would just have pulled over and called it a day because it would have been too dangerous to even continue driving.

Oh, and as far as I can tell, the X bars didnt move. There was one time at a stop, where the the front and back axles where at opposite tilt angles due to going over a ramp, that I could hear something quickly slip and I think a bar moved for a split second. Checked underneath and it was all good so I think the torque angle forced a bit of movement and then it stayed put after that.

Getting rid of the porpoising is easy, just need the correct shocks. I installed Koni FSD units at 12,000 miles and wish I would have done it sooner. Kept the smooth ride and eliminated the porpoising.

[153stars]

Source engineering and another vendor has these metered/valves/check valves of sorts that go to air bags. supposed to stop total low speed rock your are talking about. Only time I have had stuff jump out of cabinet. I'm not sure how many you need on say and 8 bag RM chassis , I thing just 2.

Originally Posted by NorthOrSouth

Well did a test run and I'd say there's definitely an improvement. The tricky part is that I also installed a Safe T Steer last week and didn't really get much chance to test it so it's hard to say how much improvement is from that and how much from my flat iron cross braces.


One definitely noticeable improvement was on the mile of country gravel I have to drive due to a construction detour. It has some hard pack gravel interspersed with potholes with loose gravel. Last week when I drove it, the wheels definitely pulled to the side when hitting the potholes and it was annoying trying to keep the rig straight. Today I powered through and although I could feel the Monaco slowing in the potholes, it didnt pull to the side and tracked straight through. Safe T Steer or cross bars? Maybe a bit of both?


On the highway, its what I'd call 85% livable tracking. Its not tracking like my car, but its also not seesawing like an old farm truck anymore.

All in all, it was worth the time and low cost. Back cross bars took about an hour and a half with figuring out lengths (60"), cutting and bolting. Had the fronts (53") done in less than half that time. No noticeable slipping or slapping of the bars, suspension actually seemed a touch quieter than before - less creaking.



Now if I could just fix the swaying I think Id be happy with the way she handles. Im not sure what can be done about that but maybe I can come up with another jury rig solution. Drives me nuts broaching driveway entrances - she still wobbles like a drunken sailor.

[YC1]

Originally Posted by 153stars

Source engineering and another vendor has these metered/valves/check valves of sorts that go to air bags. supposed to stop total low speed rock your are talking about. Only time I have had stuff jump out of cabinet. I'm not sure how many you need on say and 8 bag RM chassis , I thing just 2.

I have those "ride enhancement check valves on my rr8r). They helped very little and I would spend money on other things long before those.

I was deep into getting this monster to handle better when new in 2008. It was awful and dangerous.

Sway bars from source helped in many ways. Ride height was an inch low in the rear so the soft air bags allowed the coach to wallow around as well.
Shocks tightened things up a bit more. It still was not a good driving coach. The safe-t-plus is in a land fill somewhere. That was a big waste of money. I even installed a trim adjustment on it so I could compensate for the crown in the roads.

The new steering box is what really tamed the beast. Yes, I have every other option out there on it now.

[GoWestMan]

Originally Posted by Dennis_K

Getting rid of the porpoising is easy, just need the correct shocks. I installed Koni FSD units at 12,000 miles and wish I would have done it sooner. Kept the smooth ride and eliminated the porpoising.

Better than the Bilsteins? I thought I bought the one most people recommended but maybe not.

[153stars]

I do think the price is crazy for them. Someone posted an industrial much cheaper possible same design but with adjustable needle. I do think they only really supposed to help the low speed top whip from driveway transitions or say within campground rough road.

Originally Posted by YC1

I have those "ride enhancement check valves on my rr8r). They helped very little and I would spend money on other things long before those.

I was deep into getting this monster to handle better when new in 2008. It was awful and dangerous.

Sway bars from source helped in many ways. Ride height was an inch low in the rear so the soft air bags allowed the coach to wallow around as well.
Shocks tightened things up a bit more. It still was not a good driving coach. The safe-t-plus is in a land fill somewhere. That was a big waste of money. I even installed a trim adjustment on it so I could compensate for the crown in the roads.

The new steering box is what really tamed the beast. Yes, I have every other option out there on it now.