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Old 07-02-2012, 02:47 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanwill View Post
Bob, I understand about sway bars "curing" wandering. I experienced that very thing on a 95 Fleetwood Jamboree 31". I think I know the reason, but it does not apply to the RR8 chassis.

Perhaps I am contributing to that confusion about stability vs. wandering. I have always described the "wandering" problem as the RESULT of "instability" of the H-frame(s). I see your point. Just remember, as will I, that I am NEVER talking about the reaction to something like a tire blowout when I talk about “instability”. My only interest in this thread is in “wandering” on a smooth road at a fairly constant speed. When I refer to “instability” I am always referring to “squirming” of the H-frame as we try to get our coaches to travel “straight arrow” down a smooth road.

Van W. 93 Dynasty 36’ pulling one Harley.
Understood Van. I know you can almost never find the necessary venue for this test, but if everything mechanical with your coach is up to par then you should be able to turn loose of the wheel and it will track straight. If on that runway or other suitable surface it does not track straight then something is worn, bent or poorly designed. If the weight distribution is such that a single wheel has a significantly greater weight than the other three wheels, that wheel will have a greater surface contact and thus more drag than the other wheels. The coach will not tend to go straight. Of course one could weigh each wheel and apply uneven air pressure to achieve even surface contact on each side of the axle but that is not recommended.

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Old 07-02-2012, 02:04 PM   #324
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Understood Van. I know you can almost never find the necessary venue for this test, but if everything mechanical with your coach is up to par then you should be able to turn loose of the wheel and it will track straight. If on that runway or other suitable surface it does not track straight then something is worn, bent or poorly designed. If the weight distribution is such that a single wheel has a significantly greater weight than the other three wheels, that wheel will have a greater surface contact and thus more drag than the other wheels. The coach will not tend to go straight. Of course one could weigh each wheel and apply uneven air pressure to achieve even surface contact on each side of the axle but that is not recommended.

Bob

Bob,
On the bold, the issue I think is regarding wandering? The condition you speak of here would cause the coach to pull in that direction full time, no?


Crah,
Tires on my coach are as follows-
Fronts: Goodyear G149, 245/75R 22.5 Load Range G
Rears: Sumitomo, same size and load range as fronts. 5 belts tread/1 sidewall
All tires (front and rear) are run at 100 psi, per Goodyear weight chart with 5-10 psi fudge factor (high). I have run them at 90 psi, and no difference was noted regarding wandering (or anything else for that matter!).

8200 lbs on front axle (4040L/4160R) 35% of total
14920lbs on rear (7640L/7280R) 65% of total
1/2 tank fuel and water (both located immediately to the rear of the front axle), all gear normally carried (including groceries).
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Old 07-02-2012, 03:51 PM   #325
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Quote:
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Bob,
On the bold, the issue I think is regarding wandering? The condition you speak of here would cause the coach to pull in that direction full time, no?


.....
Yes, but on a Class A motorhome the steering is a strange thing. It sometimes feels like a slight steering wheel movement has no affect and one gets the impression that the gear box has play. You would be surprised how little movement of the steering wheel can cause a change in direction of the coach. It is very easy to over-steer a Class A coach and that is why the steering stabilizers are so popular. They give you a sense of where the center position is.

If you have a tire that has internal cord problems it can change how it contacts the road surface as it rotates. If the tire causes the coach to move to one side momentarily and you over-steer to compensate, you set up an endless effort to keep the coach straight. I know a weight distribution problem would cause a constant pull. I just wanted to point out that one should not overlook tires. A bad tire can look perfectly normal when you inspect it. Now that my coach handles well I am amazed at how little I need to move the steering wheel to make a turn at 65 MPH. When we first purchased the coach my impression was that the steering gear box had to much play. It has never been touched but now seems like there is no play.

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Old 07-02-2012, 05:24 PM   #326
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Had an interesting online conversation with a guy in Plymouth, NC who has a 91(?) Dynasty 31'. I didn't know they made them that short. Like most of us, he has the wandering problem and has been slowly making small improvements in it by conventional methods. He wants a rear sway bar, whether it has any effect on the wandering or not. The one he has ordered is from Hellwig Products RV Sway Bars | Hellwig Products

He happens to concur with the “instability of the H-frame” theory—that whatever induces the wander, it is the result of the H-frame not staying pointed straight ahead. We all know that for some owners, anti-sway bars make a remarkable improvement, and for others, they do nothing to change or reduce the wandering. He offered a thought about yet another source inducing wander. I’m not ready to comment on it just yet, but it makes sense, and SOUNDS as if it is irrefutable from a geometry standpoint.

if you rotate (sway) the chassis back and forth along the longitudinal axis. the H frame stays level with the road surface but the long trailing arms travel along different arcs as opposed to the chassis staying aligned over the H frame, imparting a torsion on the H frame in a left or right bias. The way the system is designed, you can't get around that. You can only mitigate it by limiting chassis roll or changing the geometry of the trailing arm/H frame relationship.....now imagine both front and rear doing the same thing. Now the whole mess acts like skate board wheels and trucks!!

In talking to him about that, my only comment was that I think that both the lateral movement induced by the Panhard rod, and any effect due to sway, are both extremely small when traveling down a straight, level road at a constant speed. I have experienced wandering when I was absolutely sure I felt no sway. But that is, of course, my subjective observation. Perhaps someone else would sense some sway when I did not.

I have always thought that one of the explanations for the vast difference in results from adding anti-sway bars is the method used to mount them. In some cases, probably purely by chance, the anti-sway bars may contribute to the stability of the H-frame. In all the installation drawings I’ve seen so far, ALL sway bars have “vertical links” that attach to the free ends of the sway bar. The links are PRIMARILY to allow the slight fore-and-aft movement of the free end of the bar as the suspension moves up and down. There may be other reasons I’ve missed, but that is the primary one—you cannot rigidly attach the free ends to the chassis. If you do that, the suspension can no longer move up and down. It would seem the links would make the sway bar almost perfectly free to move laterally, contributing nothing to the stability of the H-frame.

In discussing that, we theorized that if you could allow for that small fore-and-aft movement while still holding the free ends fixed laterally, that would be adding stability to the H-frame. One method of fastening the free ends of the sway bar to the lower A-arms of independent front suspension Class C coaches is to simply fasten them directly using what amounts to a U-bolt around the sway bar’s end, compressing a rubber bushing around the rod. It is therefore able to move linearly in the rubber bushing within the limits of the elasticity of the rubber. In practice, I have found that many sway bars are accomplishing their intended function when their free end is actually also slipping a small amount in that rubber bushing.

So, my friend has decided to first install the sway bar according to the directions and determine if it has any effect on the wandering. Assuming it does not miraculously eliminate all wandering, he is going to employ one or both of two different methods we came up with to fix the ends of the bar laterally while allowing it to move fore-and-aft. The only other modification is to fasten commercially available split-clamps (think “set screw collar”) to the bar on either side of its mounting bushings to prevent it from sliding laterally in those rubber bushings.

The website I listed allows you to download the installation instructions if you would like to see the bar. The company offers only one product for the Monaco and it is for 99-05 RR8R chassis, but my fiend checked the measurements and says it will work on his coach. And although I have seen very few sway bar installations or pictures of them on MH’s, I suspect almost all of them can have their ends confined laterally.

BTW, he ordered the bar for less than $350 including shipping.

Van W. 93 Dynasty 36’ pulling one Harley
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Old 07-02-2012, 07:34 PM   #327
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The conversation regarding wandering and sway. My coach wanders. It does not sway. It is not bothered by wind. Passing semis is of no concern.

From the moment I turn onto the freeway, before I can step on the accelerator, my coach is wandering, with a very poor sense of steering center. It does not worsen with speed, it just keeps wandering.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:24 PM   #328
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Mine is a little different than Jim's. My wander feels like tail wag and constant steering input is required to go straight. Winds and passing trucks amplify the effect more.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:34 PM   #329
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Regarding tag axle Monaco's--is the tag mounted on the same H-frame with the drive axle? Does anyone have a sketch or pix? I'm interested in knowing how it is deployed and how it is suspended.

Windshield project is still holding me up. But I have certainly discovered why so many folks have trouble with keeping them from popping out of the gasket.

Van W. 93 Dynasty 36' pulling one Harley
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Old 08-28-2012, 08:19 PM   #330
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Well, it's been a while since I've been able to work on this problem--combination of self-employment woes and a windshield reinstall that turned out to be the job from hell. About to leave on a motorcycle trip out west (I'm in NC) that may last three weeks, so it will be another month before I get to try out my first "eureka" idea.

But I thought I'd throw this idea out for those of you willing and able to try it out. You wanna see what is actually happening when your beast is wandering enough on a straight, level highway to drive you nuts and wear you out in just 300 miles?

I plugged a ten foot length of 2" square x 1/4 wall tubing into the hitch receiver. Then trained my wife and my wimpy neighbor how to rhythmically push and pull on the end of the tubing to induce the coach into wagging back and forth at its natural frequency and therefore at a really large amplitude. Then I crawled under the beast to watch what was happening. I wasn't surprised at WHAT I saw, but I WAS surprised at how obvious it was to see what the problem was. I'll try to video it as soon as possible and see if the video can demonstrate what's going on.

So, what did I see? Well, as you might imagine, as I lay under the beast, I saw the coach itself moving back and forth over 2". Were the dual rear tires sliding side to side in rhythm with the coach body? Of course not. Were they wiggling back and forth to keep the H-frame aligned with the coach body’s movement? IOW, were the beast’s wheels staying aligned with the coach’s body, or were they wiggling like the wheels on a skateboard when the skateboard is leaned left or right? But those wheels are connected to the coach through the H-frame by air bags, shock absorbers, ONE panhard rod and FOUR trailing arms, right? As you might expect, the shocks and the air bags were doing little to connect the wheels rigidly to the coach body--how could they? But the panhard rod and the trailing arms--they are supposed to keep that H-frame pointed in the same direction as that big mobile home riding on top of it, right? Because if the panhard rod and trailing arms don't keep that H-frame aligned with the coach body, you’re never going to be able to turn the steering wheel and expect your correction to feel like it is “connected” to your vehicle, right? If, when the coach body sways or wobbles, its rear wheels don’t stay rigidly connected to that coach body, how can your steering correction “correct” things? If, when you steer to the right, the rear H-frame squirms to the left, what do you think is going to happen?—You’re going to have to steer even more right until the H-frame “catches up” and heads to the right. Unfortunately, when that H-frame finally heads to the right, it’s going to keep going to the right until you have to steer left to try to bring it back to center. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Well, I guess you’ve figured out what I saw while I lay under the beast leisurely watching all this movement. Yep, the trailing arms wobbled first one way and then the other. Right at the location of the panhard rod, the H-frame appeared relatively stable. But the further fore or aft you looked from that panhard rod location, the more the H-frame rotated with respect to the coach body. IOW, when looked at from above, the H-frame rotated with respect to the coach body. It’s not supposed to do that, is it?

I have several ideas about how to correct that problem, but as always, I am interested in your input and your ideas, regardless how “anecdotal” anyone might think your experiences might be. LOL. The wandering can be cured, folks. It can be cured because the basic design of the Roadmaster chassis has a glaring flaw. The layout of the rest of the suspension of the coach makes it difficult to cure that one glaring flaw. But all the snake oil in the marketplace will never fix wandering. You still have to fix the REAL flaw. Once you do that, all the other “peripheral” add-ons may actually show an improvement in your coach’s handling. But they will all pale in comparison to fixing what is REALLY wrong.

End of rant. If you made it this far, thanks for reading.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:11 PM   #331
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This was timely, resurrecting this post....I just finished working on my coach. Three years ago this month, I noticed a knot on the sidewall of my left front tire (GoodYear) and replaced both fronts with new GoodYear G670's. I watched the alignment guy at the shop while they installed my tires and saw that he did good work (use to do alignments in my younger days).

I had the coach aligned that day and he told me my toe was set at 0. He corrected it with some toe-in. A week later we left for Yellowstone and I drove 675 miles in one day towing my truck. The coach was like driving an SUV. It was comfortable and tracked perfectly and was obviously not tiring to drive.

Recently, I've noticed that the left front tire was wearing on the outer edge. It has been three years and 20000 miles since the tires were replaced and the front end aligned. We went on a trip last week and I noticed that I was now getting a lot more vibration through the seat and wheel. Typically, through the seat vibration is from the rear, but not when you're sitting atop the front tires. The coach was now pulling left, something it hadn't done before. During the past year I had also noticed a shimmy when braking hard that I didn't feel was brakes related. I jacked up the front end and found the left front tire was out of round. I decided that the left front was unsafe for another trip and replaced both fronts with the Hankook AH12's (275/70R22.5 Load Range H $940.00 OTD).

I went with the balancing beads, even though I'm a high speed spin balance guy and had the pressure set at 110psi (chart says I should be at 90 psi for my weight). As I drove home the coach shook worse than before. I kept driving past the house over different roads and it got better. Apparently, the bag of beads needs to break open and distribute. I parked the coach at home and made an appoinment to have the alignment done. Before I left this morning for the alignment, I lowered the coach air pressure to 95 psi. The coach was very smooth and quite a bit of the shimmy was gone.

I showed the alignment guy (same guy from 3 years ago - 33 years doing alignments on trucks) photos of how the left front tire wore. He did a 2 axle alignment and found that this time the coach was toed-in too much. All other components were in good shape and tight at 51000 miles.

I drove the coach home on various streets and about 20 miles of freeway. It handled like it did three years ago. It was smooth, tracked straight and I was able to release the wheel for long stretches without any steering input. I rode the brakes hard several times to de-glaze them and the end result was the coach had no shimmy during braking.

My conclusion......the GoodYear tires are prone to separation, even though it may not be obvious. I've given GoodYear a chance and will never buy another. I also find on my cars that have come with GoodYears, especially the GS-A's, is that they ride rough when they reach half of their tread life, unlike other brands.

One of my concerns with the Hankooks was stabillity. I put them through some "S" turns at a good speed on the way home and they were no different than the GoodYears for stabillity.

Side Note: Last year, being a loyal customer, I replaced the four rear GoodYears at 41000 miles. They all had some odd wear, similar to balance issues, but were okay, other than age. I put GoodYears back on, but this time I installed Centramatic Balancers. I checked them this weekend and all four are wearing perfectly.

I think the GoodYear G670 is okay as a drive tire, but they just don't hold up well as a steer tire. I know some do well with them, but this hasn't been my experience. Only time will tell. I would really like to have a set of tires time out rather than crap out.

I'm willing to bet that some posters that have had rough ride and wandering issues are GoodYear related.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:57 PM   #332
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Excellent feedback Van and Don,

Looks like hope is not lost. I Have the Goodyear G169's. Time to get new steer tires. If that fails, hopefully Van will have his solution by that time.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:58 PM   #333
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My old Rockwood had Centramatics and they worked very well. This time around on my Navistar RV I installed Wheel Masters. So far with only about 12,000 miles the Goodyears are wearing pretty good, and NO wheel vibrations. deSanford
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:27 AM   #334
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Van,
You have hit the nail right on the head. After I read this, I put a long square tube into my hitch receiver, and had three good strong guys work on it while I laid underneath the back of the coach. I was absolutely flabbergasted!

Now I understand why my coach handles so much better when I'm pulling the toad! I would be better off pulling a double axle trailer! I bet that would solve the problem!

In regards to Don's post, now that I've seen what I have seen, I suspect that you could do an alignment every week and you would have to adjust the alignment every time. There's no guarantee that the rear or front H Frame are going to be sitting in exactly the same position each time you set the equipment up to do an alignment. Wow!

I'm not a fan of Freightliner chassis. However, I have looked at dozens of big trucks with Freightliner chassis, and I now realize that compared to the Roadmaster chassis, the Freightliner chassis is far superior. Having said that, I do not like the air bag system on the Freightliner chassis. I think it produces too much sway for motorhome applications. For that reason, I still prefer the outboard air bag system used on the Roadmaster chassis. But the Roadmaster chassis has a serious, serious design flaw in their chassis design. I'm surprised it hasn't caused accidents.

I haven't had the chance to inspect a Monaco tag axle. I suspect that it is mounted much the same as all the axles are mounted on a Freightliner chassis, directly to the frame. I doubt that it is mounted to the H Frame. If so, that explains to me why the Monaco tag axle coaches handle so much better. It's not so much that there's the tag axle, it's that finally there's an axle that's mounted properly to the frame.

I will get some measurements to you Van. I hope that together we can manage to find a solution to this.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:53 AM   #335
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It would be nice to tighten up a chassis by finding a simple flaw that could possibly be fixed by some sort of support like a track bar. I'm not an engineer, not even close and never played one on TV, but have some questions that maybe could be addressed or explained as this topic moves on.

When moving the rear end about with a tube in the receiver, does the coach stop at a different position each time you stop moving it. For example, after moving it, does it settle an inch to right and then the next time does it settle an inch to the left? I'm guessing that it moves and will always settle back to the same spot if all of the rear end components are in good working order. If so, an alignment wouldn't change everytime you drive the coach. It might while in motion, but not once it was static.

Personally, I always wondered how that big floating "H" ever stayed in place. Especially since it was attached to four moving air bags. I also wondered how Monaco made that floating "H", on the front of the coach, so perfectly line up that when you check ride height that all four air bags are exactly spaced the same.

I think this conversation will get interesting, but would question how Monaco could make this chassis for so long with such a fatal flaw and it was never discovered. I think I would have to see evidence of this movement while the coach was going down the road. Again, I'm not an engineer, but I'm wondering if spinning wheels and a turning driveshaft produce some directional torque that keeps things in line.

It would be interesting to mount a couple of cameras under the coach and see what happens as you drive.

Vanwill.....If this does turn out to be the Holy Grail, maybe you could market the fix (product) before Source Engineering gets a hold of it and charges three times as much. Sorry Source, love/buy your stuff, just a little pricey.


Wow....I feel stupid now. I hadn't read the last few pages and apparently missed some technical stuff. I do like a statement from nodine
Quote:
If you have a tire that has internal cord problems it can change how it contacts the road surface as it rotates. If the tire causes the coach to move to one side momentarily and you over-steer to compensate, you set up an endless effort to keep the coach straight. I know a weight distribution problem would cause a constant pull. I just wanted to point out that one should not overlook tires. A bad tire can look perfectly normal when you inspect it. Now that my coach handles well I am amazed at how little I need to move the steering wheel to make a turn at 65 MPH. When we first purchased the coach my impression was that the steering gear box had to much play. It has never been touched but now seems like there is no play.
In my younger days I sold tires for a living and was the local guru for balancing the Datsun 240Z tires when the car first came out and no one could balance them (my only claim to fame). I'm very tire sensitive and can usually tell when there is a tire issue early on. I've had three GoodYears, two G670's and one G169 fail from tread separations. They were all steer tires and were not visible to the naked eye, except for some odd wear patterns that were difficult to spot. I know that it's hard to just go out and buy another set of tires, but on two occasions, changing out the front tires and aligning the front end have brought my coach (short model 36') ride back to exceptional handling.
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:29 AM   #336
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Excellent feedback Van and Don,

Looks like hope is not lost. I Have the Goodyear G169's. Time to get new steer tires. If that fails, hopefully Van will have his solution by that time.
Craig,

I am here at the FMCA rally in Indianapolis and Wayne Wells from Roadmaster is also here. I was talking with him yesterday and he said only one person has told him that the Roadmaster sway bars did not help their R8RR. Wayne said it was a guy from Las Vegas and you came to mind. I still think you will see a big improvement if you get those Goodyear tires off and put on a brand that has stiff sidewalls and is not prone to tread separation.

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