Wandering, sway bars, alignment, ride height, oh my!!

[geordi]

Originally Posted by Red Rocker

What size were the ball joints, pitch & diameter?

I don't remember precisely, but the thread pitch was (IIRC) 1.25x12tpi.

I would suggest the easiest method is to unbolt the front drag link ball joint (which is the removable one) and match that. IF the bar then wobbles and is loose, the rear joint would need replacement. That was how mine was, the rear joint had nearly 1/4" of loose play / wobbling around the ball itself. If it got much worse, the entire collar could have fallen right off the ball. So it needed to be replaced.

You will likely need the assistance of a truck steering shop like Horton Truck Services (Jacksonville) because that ball joint was jammed in there really tight. They had to work at it to even unthread it. I doubt I would have been able to do it by hand by myself.

[Red Rocker]

Originally Posted by geordi

I don't remember precisely, but the thread pitch was (IIRC) 1.25x12tpi.

I would suggest the easiest method is to unbolt the front drag link ball joint (which is the removable one) and match that. IF the bar then wobbles and is loose, the rear joint would need replacement. That was how mine was, the rear joint had nearly 1/4" of loose play / wobbling around the ball itself. If it got much worse, the entire collar could have fallen right off the ball. So it needed to be replaced.

You will likely need the assistance of a truck steering shop like Horton Truck Services (Jacksonville) because that ball joint was jammed in there really tight. They had to work at it to even unthread it. I doubt I would have been able to do it by hand by myself.

Thank you.

[islandboy54]

I had Henderson Line Up replace my Shepard steering gear with a TRW about 3 weeks and 3,000 miles ago. 2” of steering play gone! I am very happy!! As many have posted, the TRW is the way to go.

[CrazyKnight]

Originally Posted by islandboy54

I had Henderson Line Up replace my Shepard steering gear with a TRW about 3 weeks and 3,000 miles ago. 2” of steering play gone! I am very happy!! As many have posted, the TRW is the way to go.

SWAP ON !! (if you want too)

Craig

I will copy and paste your post to the TRW thread also if you have no objections.

[zo66]

Hey Craig,

I just want to take a minute to express appreciation to you, Van, Mike Hughes, and all of the other guys that collaborated on the steering and handling fixes for these otherwise amazing machines.

My rig has greatly benefitted from all of your combined efforts, and every time I hear of another member who has benefited, I smile.

Thanks to all on the forum that have taken the time to share your combined experience and knowledge.

Jim

[Vanwill]

I thought I would share with you the results of a “shock absorber” experiment. I have “shock absorber” in quotes, because as all the competent engineers among us know, “shock absorbers” do NOT absorb shocks. They TRANSMIT shocks from the axle to the coach body in varying degrees, depending on how they are valved. “Stiff” shocks have small orifices for the fluid (gas or liquid) to pass through and transmit more shock in exchange for damping oscillations more aggressively. “Mushy” shocks have larger orifices and give a smoother ride, at the sacrifice of less aggressive damping. Yes, shock designers will tell you that it is more complicated than that, and to be sure, some design changes can be made to a shock that affect its operation characteristics. But the “holy grail” of every shock designer is to design the shock that “gives a boulevard ride, and still aggressively damps oscillations”. Until electronically controlled shocks are commonplace, the laws of physics simply say, “that ain’t gonna happen” from a passive device.

Those of you that know me, know that I pooh-pooh all the wildly euphoric posts of how some “magic” (magic = megabucks) shock gave them BOTH a SMOOTHER ride and MORE AGGRESSIVE damping. Yeah, right. Pick one or the other, Bro, or Lady Physics is going to tell all your friends you are a buffoon. When you bought those megabucks shocks, you’re not going to tell us it was a mistake, are you? I digress…

One of our more astute engineer members is Bob Nodine. He and I were discussing the “Walmart wobble” and he told me he was disappointed in the reduction of that wobble when he installed Source Engineering anti-sway bars. He was actually installing them to correct his 2006 Diplomat’s wandering (and was disappointed), but expected a large reduction in the “Walmart wobble”, and was disappointed in that, also. As we talked, I told him that it seemed to me that almost all the sensations of “rough riding” came from the FRONT of the coach. That would be because we are sitting approximately on top of the axle, and any shocks transmitted from that axle to the coach were perceived as much greater than any shock coming from the rear of the coach, which was at least 20’ behind us. I told him that I knew my rear shocks were worn, and as much a fan as I am of running “mushy” shocks and lowest possible tire air pressure in the front, I questioned whether really stiff shocks in the rear would even be noticed. My goal was to reduce what seemed to me to be a huge “Walmart wobble” in my coach.

Long story short, I installed “Heavy Duty” Bilsteins in the rear, NOT the “Comfort” Bilsteins. The result? Absolutely ZERO perceived increase in ride “harshness”. But a HUGE decrease in the “Walmart wobble”. I feel that now I have the best of both worlds in shocks. Up front, I have “mushy” Monroes that let me pass sedately over tar strips and other minor road anomalies, and still give me acceptable rebound control. In the rear, I have “stiff” shocks that can respond to the quick, transient event of walking over a curb and control the 2/3 of the weight of my coach that is located in the rear.

I’m just sayin’…

[nodine]

Originally Posted by Vanwill

I thought I would share with you the results of a “shock absorber” experiment. I have “shock absorber” in quotes, because as all the competent engineers among us know, “shock absorbers” do NOT absorb shocks. They TRANSMIT shocks from the axle to the coach body in varying degrees, depending on how they are valved. “Stiff” shocks have small orifices for the fluid (gas or liquid) to pass through and transmit more shock in exchange for damping oscillations more aggressively. “Mushy” shocks have larger orifices and give a smoother ride, at the sacrifice of less aggressive damping. Yes, shock designers will tell you that it is more complicated than that, and to be sure, some design changes can be made to a shock that affect its operation characteristics. But the “holy grail” of every shock designer is to design the shock that “gives a boulevard ride, and still aggressively damps oscillations”. Until electronically controlled shocks are commonplace, the laws of physics simply say, “that ain’t gonna happen” from a passive device.

Those of you that know me, know that I pooh-pooh all the wildly euphoric posts of how some “magic” (magic = megabucks) shock gave them BOTH a SMOOTHER ride and MORE AGGRESSIVE damping. Yeah, right. Pick one or the other, Bro, or Lady Physics is going to tell all your friends you are a buffoon. When you bought those megabucks shocks, you’re not going to tell us it was a mistake, are you? I digress…

One of our more astute engineer members is Bob Nodine. He and I were discussing the “Walmart wobble” and he told me he was disappointed in the reduction of that wobble when he installed Source Engineering anti-sway bars. He was actually installing them to correct his 2006 Diplomat’s wandering (and was disappointed), but expected a large reduction in the “Walmart wobble”, and was disappointed in that, also. As we talked, I told him that it seemed to me that almost all the sensations of “rough riding” came from the FRONT of the coach. That would be because we are sitting approximately on top of the axle, and any shocks transmitted from that axle to the coach were perceived as much greater than any shock coming from the rear of the coach, which was at least 20’ behind us. I told him that I knew my rear shocks were worn, and as much a fan as I am of running “mushy” shocks and lowest possible tire air pressure in the front, I questioned whether really stiff shocks in the rear would even be noticed. My goal was to reduce what seemed to me to be a huge “Walmart wobble” in my coach.

Long story short, I installed “Heavy Duty” Bilsteins in the rear, NOT the “Comfort” Bilsteins. The result? Absolutely ZERO perceived increase in ride “harshness”. But a HUGE decrease in the “Walmart wobble”. I feel that now I have the best of both worlds in shocks. Up front, I have “mushy” Monroes that let me pass sedately over tar strips and other minor road anomalies, and still give me acceptable rebound control. In the rear, I have “stiff” shocks that can respond to the quick, transient event of walking over a curb and control the 2/3 of the weight of my coach that is located in the rear.

I’m just sayin’…

Good news old buddy!

I am one of those whop spent big bucks on stiff shocks for the front expecting to be amazed after spending all that money. As time went on I quit rationalizing my big outflow of cash and pulled those beasts. On Van's recommendation installed the cheap Monroe shocks on the front only and have been smiling ever since.

Bob

[islandboy54]

By all means, feel free to share my comments!

[Dkisler]

Originally Posted by nodine

Good news old buddy!

I am one of those whop spent big bucks on stiff shocks for the front expecting to be amazed after spending all that money. As time went on I quit rationalizing my big outflow of cash and pulled those beasts. On Van's recommendation installed the cheap Monroe shocks on the front only and have been smiling ever since.

Bob

Hi Bob
As a result of reading your posts about wandering etc and the great contributions of VanMill and CrazyKnight i swapped out my steering box to a TRW and added the three kits sold by MonacoWatts. I sincerely appreciate your post that got me started on these upgrades this summer. I cannot believe the improvements in my 2005 Monaco Knight. It is not even the same motorhome!!!!! Thank you all for your time consuming contributions to IRV2. I was about to email you today when i found the new posting from Van and you about Monroe and Bilstein shocks. My questions was going to be "are you still happy with he Monroe shocks that you swapped out for the Bilsteins? My revised question now is - Are you in agreement with Van i.e. Monroes on the front and Bilsteins heavy duty on the rear? It seems to make sense to me and i am so pleased with both you and Van's previous recommendations that I wanted to confirm is there is a consensus on this. Thanks once again for your great help and recommendations.
Don

[mak1]

I am one of those, that spent the big $$ for the front and forgot the rear as it seemed to make sense. Seems I had it backwards....Do you guys still feel that is correct after all these years?

[Red Rocker]

I finally made it out on the road to test out the Watts link & steering box adjustment, BIG improvement! Fought a cross wind all the way from Bowie to Amarillo & the wife wasn't even aware of it due to not having to wrestle the wheel all day. Thanks guys for the help, I am a happy camper! Mike

[nodine]

Originally Posted by Dkisler

Hi Bob
As a result of reading your posts about wandering etc and the great contributions of VanMill and CrazyKnight i swapped out my steering box to a TRW and added the three kits sold by MonacoWatts. I sincerely appreciate your post that got me started on these upgrades this summer. I cannot believe the improvements in my 2005 Monaco Knight. It is not even the same motorhome!!!!! Thank you all for your time consuming contributions to IRV2. I was about to email you today when i found the new posting from Van and you about Monroe and Bilstein shocks. My questions was going to be "are you still happy with he Monroe shocks that you swapped out for the Bilsteins? My revised question now is - Are you in agreement with Van i.e. Monroes on the front and Bilsteins heavy duty on the rear? It seems to make sense to me and i am so pleased with both you and Van's previous recommendations that I wanted to confirm is there is a consensus on this. Thanks once again for your great help and recommendations.
Don

Don,

Yes, I agree with Monroes on the front and more aggressive shocks on the rear. Don't forget to weigh each wheel, or as a minimum each axle of your coach and only run the air pressure required by your tire manufacturer to support the load. Some folks air up their tires to the air pressure on the sidewall and that is not what you should do. Sure it will work but you will have a harsher ride and the footprint of the tire on the road will not afford an optimum wear pattern.

I worked on several projects to do with weighing vehicles in motion, such as you see at truck weigh stations. That is where I learned about the tire footprint and how the weight on that wheel, the air pressure in the tire and the design of the tire affects the contact pattern of the tire to the road. Another member here, YC1, has had a problem with his coach pulling to one side since he has owned it. He tried many things including alignment and having Josams check the rear axle. Nothing seemed to help. Usually the problem is the rear axle is not parallel with the front but his was OK. Knowing that many motorhomes have poor weight distribution I suggested he weigh each wheel to test if one axle had a significant difference in weight from one side to the other. On that axle adjust the air pressure in the tires to match the load on the tire. That will result in a different air pressure in the tires on the same axle. The objective is to have matching tire footprints on each side of the axle. If the tire on the heavy side has the same air pressure at the tire on the opposite side it will have a larger footprint on the road and thus more drag. YC1 adjusted his tire pressure and has reported it stopped the pulling of the coach.

Bob

[YC1]

I hate it when I type a long response and it goes away. Back to the copy and paste from Word.

Bob just outed me.

I am running ten pounds difference from right to left on the rv now. After an 8K mile trip the pull to the right is all but gone.

After two alignments over the years experimenting and modifying all things and then removing the shims installed in the front I am ready to add the shims back.

The shims tilt the axle down in the back. My first alignment was when the coach was new in 2009. The alignment helped quite a bit but it was still a beast.

After all the mods and taming the beast and now seeming to solve the annoying pull I would like to have the shims back in place. Why you say? The steering force input is annoying and I remember when the shims were in it was better.
To clarify, it takes more force doing the see saw (tiny bit and far less then when new), than I like. It takes a push to get it going one way or the other leading to some tiring.

Define tiring. Well, after 8-10 hours of driving my arms are tired.

Yes yes I am seeking perfection. It’s my baby and I’ll spoil her if I want to.
I may not be the best at explaining the improvements and limitations on my RV but I know how much improvement has been made over the white knuckle monster this thing was. Trucks passing me and trying to sneak into my lane mirror to mirror does not frighten me. Annoy me yes, but the positive handling is easy to move my RV over a few inches.

My original Monroe shocks were shot at 17K miles. Leaving uneven driveways would find the Rv heaving from side to side and tossing things from the cupboards. Driving rutted driveways I would have to stop some times to let things settle.
So right at 50K miles my nice Bilstein shocks have given up the ghost. I haven’t removed any of them yet to inspect but from the way things are acting again my wife told me “we are going to have new shocks before our next trip”.
I don’t think I overspent the last time and will try to get some warranty relief if possible on them.

The shocks have little to no effect on the ride going down the road or handling except when hitting those bridge joints or Arkansas roads. The shocks dampen the upheaval when leaving unexpected unlevel driveways.
I have changed the rear shocks on my Ford Edge twice now in 80K miles. It’ handling deteriorates quite a bit when they go bad. The poor thing has more than 80K miles as shown on the odometer because it is towed. I changed the front struts a few years ago and need to do them again.
So, shocks add to the comfort of driving and decreases the yelling coming from the passenger seat.

[mak1]

YC1.....I have a 38 Dip and was wondering if you could give me some insight as to what Bilstein shock should go on the rear.....or should I say, what did you use? I have, as you might guess, the same destructive, multiple list actions on curbs. I have 32k on the original rear shocks but replaced the front with $$$Koni's. I never gave it a thought that I might be doing it wrong.