Propane Tank DANGER!!! PLEASE READ!!

[M&S Norrell]

Just got this email from fellow camper and thought it was important enough to get the word out among all our camping friends...

Hello everyone,
For those of you who like to grill it up during the summer, here's a safety announcement you should be aware of... Please put this information out to ALL personnel. This message was sent to me and I thought it should be shared. I personally do not exchange my propane tank. For those of you that do, this is something you definitely need to be aware of, especially in light of the recent news of "Meth-labs" in our area.

The following came from an email sent to me:

"There was a meth training/workshop yesterday and there was a lot of great new information presented. I wanted to let you all know about one thing that I was not aware of.

Meth cooks are getting the propane tanks from the exchanges at Wal-Mart, Kroger, etc. and emptying them of the propane. Then, they are filling them with anhydrous ammonia (which they now have a recipe for by the way). After they are finished with them, they return them to the store. They are then rfilled with propane and sent back for you and me to buy. Anhydrous ammonia is very corrosive and weakens the structure of the tank. It can be very dangerous when mixed with propane and hooked up to our grills, etc.

According to our presenter, you should inspect the propane tank for any blue or greenish residue around the valve areas. If it is present, refuse to purchase that one."

I researched the information, and you should check out the following website for more details. They also have pictures you can show.

http://www.npga.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=529

Be careful out there!

[TXiceman]

Anhydrous ammonia is routinely stored in carbon steel contaoners and by itself is not really corrosive. It will however attack any copper bearing materils such as the brass valves. The problem comes from the intorduction of a small amount of moisture and it becomes corrive.

The ammonia will make short work of the brass valves. I dout if the crack labs are making ammonia from scratch. It can be made from natural gas and it does occur naturally in nature.

I am surprised that one of these over-achieving idiots has not kill him(her)self trying to store ammonai in the bottles with brass valves.

As a point of interest, ammonia will readily burn in the presence of a flame. Take the flame or ignition source away and it will not burn.

I think the articel overstates some of the points as well as presents some untruths. I've worked with ammonia for almost 40 years now.

Since this can be more than just an Excel issue, I will link this to the General discussion forum.

Ken

[Route 66]

SNOPES lists this as "undetermined" as far as tanks being returned.

Snopes points out, why would a criminal return a tank and draw attention to their self, and they have no reason to return a tank to get more propane anyway.

Also the propane refilling company does not refill questionable tanks.

It sounds like our chances of coming into contact with one of these tanks is remote.

The pictures on the NPGA web site make it easy to tell if a tank has been misused.

[Ray,IN]

I'd beleive Ken much faster than your "presenter". A college prof once told me that an expert is someone over 200 miles from home.

[RandD]

My impression of the NPGA warning is that it is directed at the Industry, not we consumers. As a consumer, I would expect the company refilling the tank to see this corrosion and pull the tank form service. I would question any exchange company's credibility were I to see a refilled tank with a valve so obviously corroded as the one in the NPGA's website. That said, I _do_ appreciate the heads up! Randy

[FrontRangeRVer]

Originally posted by Route 66:
SNOPES lists this as "undetermined" as far as tanks being returned.

Snopes points out, why would a criminal return a tank and draw attention to their self, and they have no reason to return a tank to get more propane anyway.

Also the propane refilling company does not refill questionable tanks.

It sounds like our chances of coming into contact with one of these tanks is remote.

The pictures on the NPGA web site make it easy to tell if a tank has been misused.

Dirk has it right....a hoax email!

[Gadget Man]

Originally posted by FrontRangeRVer:
Dirk has it right....a hoax email!

I hate to tell you, but this is NOT a hoax. As a 27 year veteran of a metropolitan police agency, and I can tell you that this is a legitimate warning, despite what Snopes may say. We recently received a similar warning via law enforcement channels.

The applies to propane tank exchange racks like you see at Lowe's and other retail chains. The likelihood of you coming a cross one is very low, but nonetheless, do not use any propane tank with any blue or pink stains.

[TXiceman]

There is danger to the brass valve on the tank being damaged due to the corrosive action from the ammonia. It is readily apparent when the valve has been exposed to ammonia.

It is amazing the extent these dope heads will go to to make the illegal drugs. The larger refrigerated food plants mostly use ammonia as a refrigerant and usually have the vessels indoors, but a few have the storage tanks out doors. The plants have had to step up security to prevent theft of what can be a highly dangerous chemical when in the hands of someone that does not understand the dangers of the chemical. You do not just pour off a bucket and take off.

It is a real warning for the dangers of the valve, but that is about all. Some of the other items in the article are not very factual.

Ken

[Route 66]

"Critical" information passed by email is ALWAYS suspect, and usually false, misleading, or exaggerated.

True critical info is in the news, or in press releases by businesses/industry or government agencies/authorities.

[ChiefJohn]

Thanks Ken and Dirk -- folks tend to get into the "sky is falling in" syndrome over mis- and/or inflated information.

John

[NeilV]

Regardless of the factualness of this report one should always doubly scrutinize any cylinder gotten through an exchange program especially when not directly through a gas dealer - propane, acetalane etc. If it is not in like new condition then don't accept it.

Brass or copper when exposed to anhydrous ammonia looses its shiney patina and takes on a clean but flat appearance (rotten to my eye). I have been on manny a roof where the 5 ton anhydrous units have had a leak and did major damage to the lightening protection systems. Tons of embrittled braided copper cable some eaten away clean through by the amonia.

Personally I am not a big fan of the exchanges and would rather be in control of my tanks.

If you exchange and don't trust your ability to detect a bad tank then find a reputable dealer and ask him how he culls out tanks that have been subjected to this type of abuse. If he gives you a satisfactory answer stick with him otherwise move on.

[HB Phil]

My propane dealer is also the local welding and industrial gas dealer. I started going to him because his pricing was fair.

Some gas stations rip folks off with little signs that read "$18.00 minimum," even if you only top off $3.00 dollars worth.

I have never used an exchange service. But in view of some of the tank safety issues being discussed here, I am glad that my tanks are being handled by these gas pros who are more likely to spot tank problems.

Originally posted by NeilV:
Regardless of the factualness of this report one should always doubly scrutinize any cylinder gotten through an exchange program especially when not directly through a gas dealer - propane, acetalane etc. If it is not in like new condition then don't accept it.

Brass or copper when exposed to anhydrous ammonia looses its shiney patina and takes on a clean but flat appearance (rotten to my eye). I have been on manny a roof where the 5 ton anhydrous units have had a leak and did major damage to the lightening protection systems. Tons of embrittled braided copper cable some eaten away clean through by the amonia.

Personally I am not a big fan of the exchanges and would rather be in control of my tanks.

If you exchange and don't trust your ability to detect a bad tank then find a reputable dealer and ask him how he culls out tanks that have been subjected to this type of abuse. If he gives you a satisfactory answer stick with him otherwise move on.

[Gadget Man]

Originally posted by ChiefJohn:
Thanks Ken and Dirk -- folks tend to get into the "sky is falling in" syndrome over mis- and/or inflated information.

Interesting.....a well wishing member sends out a warning about exchanged propane tanks, hoping to help his fellow forum members. Another member with direct knowledge due to his profession confirms the existence of the warning. Despite this, someone totally discounts both warnings, labeling it as hype, and he gets a pat on the back.

I'm sorry, I don't get it...

[JWatkins]

I would suspect that any reputable bulk re-filling site has heard of this and already has issued new practices for testing, if they did not already exist. This is probably much ado about nothing.
Joe