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Old 05-07-2021, 02:01 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmotorsports View Post
I used an AutoMeter extension module (5257) that accepts the standard K-style probe and then uses standard 16 -gauge wire ran up to the cockpit mounted gauge. I feel it is a must to get accurate readings similar to what Van posted. There is a voltage drop running that long of a distance and with such small voltages being used in gauge wiring anyways, this compounds the voltage drop and affects readings. The gauge manufactures calculate in the actual resistance which is why in the instructions they state to not add or subtract length from the probe wires. The extension module works perfectly.

Here is a link to the one I used, but I'm sure there are others.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5257
Sorry - I forgot to post the link to my gauge:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Think the extension module would work with this? I'd like to avoid changing the gauge if possible.

Actually..... Looking at the manufacturer's website, they list a 40' harness for the EGT probe and there is NOTHING on the cable other than the heat shield. So it seems that their gauge WOULD be capable of reading accurately with the extension I added. (it might not be shielded with braid like this, but I didn't run it alongside anything that is powered - it follows my air conditioner and fuel lines)

https://www.maxtow.com/extended-leng...ensor-harness/
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Old 05-08-2021, 06:54 PM   #184
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Can a millivolt signal be accurate for 40 feet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by geordi View Post
Sorry - I forgot to post the link to my gauge:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Think the extension module would work with this? I'd like to avoid changing the gauge if possible.

Actually..... Looking at the manufacturer's website, they list a 40' harness for the EGT probe and there is NOTHING on the cable other than the heat shield. So it seems that their gauge WOULD be capable of reading accurately with the extension I added. (it might not be shielded with braid like this, but I didn't run it alongside anything that is powered - it follows my air conditioner and fuel lines)

https://www.maxtow.com/extended-leng...ensor-harness/
Geordi,

I have used both type gages--the type with a long Type-K extension lead and the type with the amplifier. But my experience is still anecdotal, NOT statistically verfied. Both my installations SEEMED to work well. I was just as surprised by the high EGT from my original installation on a 1993 Monaco Dynasty 36 with Cummins 8.3 (long Type-K thermocouple wire) as I was with the current amplifier-type EGT system from AutoMeter. Best I can tell, the ISC-350 is just the same mechanical 8.3 engine with a freer flowing 24 Valve head and electronically controlled fuel injection.

As an engineer, I always felt uneasy about the accuracy of an installation sending a millivolt signal over a long distance, and requiring that the interconnecting cable must be some exact length and any extra must be coiled up and NOT shortened. BUT, I have no proof, anecdotal or otherwise, that the Type-K system did not produce accurate results. Further, I am not sure that my first EGT gage installation used a stepper motor gage head. I know that it reacted noticeably slower than this amplifier-type system I use now. The amplifier-type is quite quick-reacting.

The main advantage for the amplifier-type might be that almost all Monaco's have extra unused wires running from the engine bay to the DS console. They are not often easy to find, but they are ALWAYS there. Running that long Type-K wire is a PITA.

Amplifier-type would definitely be my choice, but at this point it is just my opinion.
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Old 05-08-2021, 07:01 PM   #185
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According to Cummins, my engine is the 330 spec, which is also somewhat disappointing that they say it can't be uprated to 350 or more. But that also seems to at least be consistent in that they tell this to anyone that I have seen post recently. For a variable performance design, I find it dubious that they would NOT install the same components in all engines, and simply de-rate the platform based on what the purchaser was willing to pay for. It is more complicated AND more expensive to maintain multiple parts streams when manufacturers are nothing if not cheap.

With that in mind, I would think that perhaps my EGT and boost are lower simply by virtue of the ECU not injecting enough fuel to increase the power.... Which could also explain the lower EGT I am seeing. Obviously more research is needed.
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Old 05-09-2021, 12:32 PM   #186
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Mili-amp signal

In regards to the mili-amp signal reference, the amperage is not that susceptible to loss over that short distance, I say short because in my line of work in the oil field we us a lot of sensors on a 4 to 20 mA reference over a distance of 100' and more. The only real issue you may have would be unwanted induced noise but if you have a good shielded cable and the absence of any AC voltage lines running parallel with it you will be fine. If you were using voltage for a reference you may then have an issue with distance causing voltage drop but probably have no concerns with induced noise like you may have on a current reference. In most cases thermocouples will have long wires as they are used in kilns, ovens, aerospace applications and a variety of other applications where the probe is in the target area and the gauge, plc or other registering device is in another location not near the heat source being monitored. Hope that is helpful.

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Old 05-26-2021, 12:56 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geordi View Post
According to Cummins, my engine is the 330 spec, which is also somewhat disappointing that they say it can't be uprated to 350 or more. But that also seems to at least be consistent in that they tell this to anyone that I have seen post recently. For a variable performance design, I find it dubious that they would NOT install the same components in all engines, and simply de-rate the platform based on what the purchaser was willing to pay for. It is more complicated AND more expensive to maintain multiple parts streams when manufacturers are nothing if not cheap.

With that in mind, I would think that perhaps my EGT and boost are lower simply by virtue of the ECU not injecting enough fuel to increase the power.... Which could also explain the lower EGT I am seeing. Obviously more research is needed.
Closely following your posts here, I have nearly the same coach / drivetrain / issues that you have.
2002 Diplomat, 330 ISC, 'low' boost (about 17#, occasionally will pop up to 24# or so), and it's a dog...I'll go from 65 to 45 on the highway simply from an overpass incline. Please keep your research going and continue to post about it, your findings along with all the rest of the info and people posting in this thread are very very helpful.
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Old 05-26-2021, 08:19 PM   #188
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Coming back to this thread with some experiments and observations from my ISC....

I have installed an EGT probe into the manifold right before the turn of the #6 cylinder. Yes I'm not monitoring "all" of the cylinders at the same time, but this is less than an inch from the exhaust manifold gasket and SHOULD be representative of the other 5 cylinders too.

At highway cruising speed of 70mph, temperature is stable at 800 degrees. Even pulling a steep bridge (half mile climb) the temperature topped out at just over 1000 degrees and 25 lbs of boost according to the MAP sensor.

The wastegate is actually completely disconnected at the moment - I just completed a 3000 mile trip with it like that, and boost NEVER went above 26psi on the MAP sensor, the gauge trailed any pressure reading from the MAP by a few lbs.

I have been chasing "things from the tank" issues for a while, so now I have installed a Goldenrod pre-filter before my FASS, and am using a 40 screen in it as a trash filter. This seems to be working well, and in 1000 miles of travel the screen strained out about a shot glass worth of "stuff".... Which LOOKS like rusty flakes, but when touched by a gloved hand, these flakes just disintegrate into dark brown dust / not-really-grit. I'm stumped what this debris is, but at least it isn't clogging my filters and FASS anymore.

Installation of the FASS, the goldenrod, and disconnecting the wastegate all seem to have had little-to-no effect on the overall performance or fuel mileage. I have now completely bypassed the factory lift pump (and with new fuel hoses!) and feel that also has not changed the performance, not that I expected it to.

Thoughts? Why am I not seeing any boost over 26lbs with the turbo system basically locked into full boost mode?

re: "rusty flakes". This might explain. item #2.
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Old 05-26-2021, 11:20 PM   #189
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Increased boost does not equal increased performance

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Originally Posted by FingerTight View Post
Closely following your posts here, I have nearly the same coach / drivetrain / issues that you have.
2002 Diplomat, 330 ISC, 'low' boost (about 17#, occasionally will pop up to 24# or so), and it's a dog...I'll go from 65 to 45 on the highway simply from an overpass incline. Please keep your research going and continue to post about it, your findings along with all the rest of the info and people posting in this thread are very very helpful.
Unfortunately, as best I can determine from reading specs and from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, the Cummins ECU will NOT add additional fuel just because boost pressure is higher. Increasing boost, without equivocation, WILL reduce EGT, but will NOT increase performance. Conversely, increasing fueling for any given boost pressure WILL increase EGT and output power. If you have additional boost available, you can add additional fuel and burn it efficiently enough to increase power. But my personal experience is that adding fueling needs to be accompanied by boost increase to keep EGT from going too high FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME.

Once again, increasing boost without increasing fueling does NOTHING to increase power. And the Cummins ECU will not increase fueling beyond what it is programmed as its "max", regardless how much you increase boost pressure.
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Old 05-27-2021, 11:41 AM   #190
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Unfortunately, as best I can determine from reading specs and from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, the Cummins ECU will NOT add additional fuel just because boost pressure is higher. Increasing boost, without equivocation, WILL reduce EGT, but will NOT increase performance. Conversely, increasing fueling for any given boost pressure WILL increase EGT and output power. If you have additional boost available, you can add additional fuel and burn it efficiently enough to increase power. But my personal experience is that adding fueling needs to be accompanied by boost increase to keep EGT from going too high FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME.

Once again, increasing boost without increasing fueling does NOTHING to increase power. And the Cummins ECU will not increase fueling beyond what it is programmed as its "max", regardless how much you increase boost pressure.
Makes perfect sense. I'm currently in troubleshooting mode...once it's operating as it should be I'll be thinking performance. This 17# boost seems to be too low and I can't yet figure out what causes it to randomly "pop" up to 24# for a short period of time. Fuel filters are fresh, air filter is fresh, all the rubber boots seem to be fine, no obvious air leaks when checking it out while running, PAC break seems free / operates as expected, can't manually manipulate the wastegate and I've heard that can be an issue...next on my list to start taking things apart so I can get to that and verify it's OK.
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Old 05-27-2021, 02:37 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FingerTight View Post
Makes perfect sense. I'm currently in troubleshooting mode...once it's operating as it should be I'll be thinking performance. This 17# boost seems to be too low and I can't yet figure out what causes it to randomly "pop" up to 24# for a short period of time. Fuel filters are fresh, air filter is fresh, all the rubber boots seem to be fine, no obvious air leaks when checking it out while running, PAC break seems free / operates as expected, can't manually manipulate the wastegate and I've heard that can be an issue...next on my list to start taking things apart so I can get to that and verify it's OK.
On mine, the wastegate spring is WAY WAY stronger than I am. I had to unbolt the spring perch to be able to verify that the flap moved easily (it does) so that spring to open the pressure dump must be set for immense pressure. That's fine with me, I've had the wastegate tube completely disconnected from the spring and plugged for a while now, and it hasn't made a difference in the total boost levels. So either there is something wrong with the turbo (don't think so) or there is a restriction somewhere else like in the exhaust system. I will be investigating that in the next few weeks after I get back from a trip to the west coast (not in the RV) for work.
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Old 06-06-2021, 10:05 AM   #192
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Vanwill, et al

Just got finished reading through all these pages of posts.
I really appreciate you reporting your actual experiences versus what you have read or heard. I like when you present a theory you state as much. When you state an opinion, you say as much. This really helps us all moving forward with real data not theoretical data.

And the same goes to all the contributors who are writing up feedback with their real data.

Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed learning about the theories also, as long as there’s stated as theories versus real world facts and feedback.

Once I get my exhaust brake troubleshot, the next things on my list are the:
FASs fuel system upgrade, it is sitting on my desk waiting for installation, I figure this is cheap insurance to avoid losing a caps pump. (Next 3 weeks)

Third item will be the EGT probe and gauge combo and a MP sensor and gauge combo which will enable me to start getting a baseline of Boost and EGT‘s RPMs and throttle positions. Essentially map out the MP & EGT envelope particular to my engine and transmission set up. This is to get my baseline. (Next 3weeks)

3000 mile road trip

Fourth item will be playing around with the wastegate actuation to see if I can lower EGT‘s through that method. Whether I go down the road of modifying the linkage, disconnecting it, or a boost fooler, that will be decided later, especially waiting to read some more thoughts on what you guys are doing and finding out.
(Might play with some of this on the aforementioned road trip once the baseline is established)

Fifth item will be the AG solutions fuel controller unit. With what I’ve read on here so far between this thread and others I will probably go ahead and purchase it ahead of time and just not install it till I complete the other items. This is one of those things that sometimes businesses drop product lines or go out of business and I want to get it and not miss out LOL
Re: banks system.

Looking forward to reading more inputs and personal experiences! Keep up the great work,
thanks
Thescoutranch
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Old 06-10-2021, 05:21 PM   #193
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I'm out on a work trip to the West Coast (NOT with my coach!) but before I left I had an opportunity to poke at it a bit more, and have some observations.

I see now where I can reposition the EGT probe to just below the turbo inlet (my manifold appears to come off the side of the engine and "face up" with the turbo perched on top) so if I come at it from the outside edge (street side of the coach) of the manifold, there looks to be enough room there to get the drill into position on the manifold - and watching for that center webbing. So I'll know more about the EGT (and whether there are any changes in reading at WOT) once that can be moved.

I also took the opportunity to install the MP TS-8 performance module - another "cheater chip" like the ag-diesel, and (temporarily) I extended the control cable for the knob with 60 feet of wire and just ran it down the center floor for testing. With the knob in the off position, performance seemed the same - as expected. I found that at a 70mph steady cruise on flat land the Scangauge-D "MPG" and "GPH" would change as I advanced the knob, with around a 40% position on the knob leading the computer to say I was using about 2.6 GPH and about an 8.3mpg (these are approximate b/c I didn't write them down at the time) but I wasn't feeling any overall big performance jumps.

I know that these cheater chips can only do two things: Fool the boost and fool the fuel pressure, b/c that's all they connect to. At NO POINT did the computer's boost reading (scangauge) rise above 23.4 lbs. My analog gauge usually lags the computer's sensor by about 5 lbs.

Normal WOT operation (highway entrance ramp) I see no smoke, read boost of 23.4 psi electronic, and analog of around 16-18 psi. EGT tops out at about 1020 degrees reading from only cylinder #6 at the moment.

With the knob at 40%, a WOT run saw boost of 23.4 electronic, Still about 16-18psi analog, and EGT of only a little higher at 1150. I felt no clear power increase - but maybe it was a touch more zippy.

If I turned the knob all the way up, everything was still about the same for numbers and performance, BUT I saw a bit of smoke on WOT. First time for this coach, so the chip MUST be doing something about the fuel supply. To me though - and I have a decent amount of diesel performance experience with VW and Jeep diesels - it feels like there is a restriction somewhere in the fuel supply or the exhaust, that is just not allowing the turbo to develop more boost OR the drive pressure (fuel supply into the exhaust) is not sufficient.

Now I don't have any codes in the system at the moment, but I have in the past logged a few that I can't find definitions for. I'll post them below. What I'm wondering is if that electromagnetic fuel metering valve that the other member recently replaced on his ISC could be acting up on mine - and perhaps just not allowing it to develop full power?

Thoughts from the group? At the moment I'm ambivalent about the cheater chip, I still may get rid of it b/c it isn't doing anything significant (yet)... But that may still be from outside reasons.

Codes I've had / definitions if I found them:
151-7-1 system diagnostic code #1 mechanical system not responsive or out of adjustment (inactive code)
94-0-170 fuel overpressure?
157-4-17 injector metering rail pressure voltage below normal or shorted to low source
97-0-1 water in fuel sensor above range (disconnected - fixed by connecting it)
73-11-1 aux water pump pressure unknown cause (inactive code)
94-10-255 fuel delivery pressure abnormal rate of change (CumminsCode 456) (active code!!!!)
94-2-1 Fuel delivery pressure data valid but above normal operational range (inactive)

I replaced the fuel pressure sensor in January and the fuel pressure related codes have not returned. But what is that 151 code? Cummins can't give me any answer on that one.

Things I haven't figured out:
13
32
36
42
96
97
100
106

There are no "active" codes or warning lights at this time, and my code tables do not list these specific numbers for Cummins.
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Old 06-11-2021, 06:41 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geordi View Post
I'm out on a work trip to the West Coast (NOT with my coach!) but before I left I had an opportunity to poke at it a bit more, and have some observations.

I see now where I can reposition the EGT probe to just below the turbo inlet (my manifold appears to come off the side of the engine and "face up" with the turbo perched on top) so if I come at it from the outside edge (street side of the coach) of the manifold, there looks to be enough room there to get the drill into position on the manifold - and watching for that center webbing. So I'll know more about the EGT (and whether there are any changes in reading at WOT) once that can be moved.

I also took the opportunity to install the MP TS-8 performance module - another "cheater chip" like the ag-diesel, and (temporarily) I extended the control cable for the knob with 60 feet of wire and just ran it down the center floor for testing. With the knob in the off position, performance seemed the same - as expected. I found that at a 70mph steady cruise on flat land the Scangauge-D "MPG" and "GPH" would change as I advanced the knob, with around a 40% position on the knob leading the computer to say I was using about 2.6 GPH and about an 8.3mpg (these are approximate b/c I didn't write them down at the time) but I wasn't feeling any overall big performance jumps.

I know that these cheater chips can only do two things: Fool the boost and fool the fuel pressure, b/c that's all they connect to. At NO POINT did the computer's boost reading (scangauge) rise above 23.4 lbs. My analog gauge usually lags the computer's sensor by about 5 lbs.

Normal WOT operation (highway entrance ramp) I see no smoke, read boost of 23.4 psi electronic, and analog of around 16-18 psi. EGT tops out at about 1020 degrees reading from only cylinder #6 at the moment.

With the knob at 40%, a WOT run saw boost of 23.4 electronic, Still about 16-18psi analog, and EGT of only a little higher at 1150. I felt no clear power increase - but maybe it was a touch more zippy.

If I turned the knob all the way up, everything was still about the same for numbers and performance, BUT I saw a bit of smoke on WOT. First time for this coach, so the chip MUST be doing something about the fuel supply. To me though - and I have a decent amount of diesel performance experience with VW and Jeep diesels - it feels like there is a restriction somewhere in the fuel supply or the exhaust, that is just not allowing the turbo to develop more boost OR the drive pressure (fuel supply into the exhaust) is not sufficient.

Now I don't have any codes in the system at the moment, but I have in the past logged a few that I can't find definitions for. I'll post them below. What I'm wondering is if that electromagnetic fuel metering valve that the other member recently replaced on his ISC could be acting up on mine - and perhaps just not allowing it to develop full power?

Thoughts from the group? At the moment I'm ambivalent about the cheater chip, I still may get rid of it b/c it isn't doing anything significant (yet)... But that may still be from outside reasons.

Codes I've had / definitions if I found them:
151-7-1 system diagnostic code #1 mechanical system not responsive or out of adjustment (inactive code)
94-0-170 fuel overpressure?
157-4-17 injector metering rail pressure voltage below normal or shorted to low source
97-0-1 water in fuel sensor above range (disconnected - fixed by connecting it)
73-11-1 aux water pump pressure unknown cause (inactive code)
94-10-255 fuel delivery pressure abnormal rate of change (CumminsCode 456) (active code!!!!)
94-2-1 Fuel delivery pressure data valid but above normal operational range (inactive)

I replaced the fuel pressure sensor in January and the fuel pressure related codes have not returned. But what is that 151 code? Cummins can't give me any answer on that one.

Things I haven't figured out:
13
32
36
42
96
97
100
106

There are no "active" codes or warning lights at this time, and my code tables do not list these specific numbers for Cummins.
Geordi, my experience with the AG chip is much like yours with the chip you are using. Although it is definitely adding fuel (EGT went up from stock), the increase in power is modest. I get no smoke. On the ISC, I have found no evidence from any reputable source, nor from my personal experience, that the Cummins ECM will adjust fueling based on manifold pressure or vice-versa. It APPEARS to me that the Cummins ECM is basically operating from a "look-up" table imbedded permanently in the ECM. An increase in fueling from a chip will improve power very slightly but a fully functioning wastegate on the turbo will limit its output pressure to nearly the stock pressure.

If you are seeing smoke at any combination of throttle position and boost pressure, I would THINK that increasing the boost to fully burn that fuel might give you a modest increase in power, but I have no personal experience with that. The AG chip I use has never caused any exhaust smoke from over-fueling. It IS adding fuel, since with my wastegate disabled, the engine develops more boost with the AG chip enabled than in the stock condition (no chip), and the EGT is higher.

Although I have no dynamometer data, I have become thoroughly convinced from my personal experience that the Cummins ECM will NOT add extra fuel just because boost pressure is higher. I will keep the AG chip, because it is improving the power a modest amount, but it is certainly not as dramatic as some folks have posted, at least not in my personal experience.

BTW, I replaced my rusted-out muffler with an Aero Turbine 4040XL. It was an economic replacement for a very expensive muffler, and is virtually a "glass-packed" straight-thru muffler. I am satisfied with it. I expected zero increase in performance from it, and got exactly what I expected. I have grave doubt that increasing the exhaust to 5" has any perceptible effect other than to slightly increase the exhaust noise.

I would be interested in your report of change in EGT by moving the location of the probe. Mine is very near the inlet of the turbo and my EGT has, from Day One (bone stock) always surprised me at how high it can be under conditions of WOT and engine RPM of 1600 or less. I can easily "torture" it to get 1400*+. Increasing the boost brought that temperature down. Of course, increasing RPM will also lower EGT dramatically.

Good luck with your experiments! It's always good to hear "hands-on" experience rather than "pretenders" parroting what they read on the Internet.
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