Cummins ISX broken valve in #6

[Mr Ted]

How did you reprogram it ?

[Ivylog]

I’ve read that a metal freeze plug can be inserted into the EGR tube where it bolts to the engine’s intake tube blocking the EGR. Haven’t tried it myself.

[MarkofSJC]

Here's the quote I just got from Cummins for swapping out for the newly redesigned head for the ISX-650 that has EGR but non-DEF. It does include replacement of both cams, which may not be required...

We were looking at this proactively for a coach we're considering purchasing (provided them with the engine serial number of 79398812, which he validated)

They have a coach on the way that just went through this issue - and they have several of these new heads in-stock!

[vito.a]

Mark that's probably a good price.
However, most of the Cummins ISX650 engine updates have included the newer design pistons with carbon scrapers (times 6). The new style pistons also require new liners. If it requires these parts, then of course that price is going to go up significantly.

Another thought. Usually this work is done while the block stays in the chassis. Removing and reinstalling the engine in a motor home is usually very costly once they get into it. Cummins dealer shops are used to working on Class 8 trucks and heavy equipment that doesn't have a bedroom above the engine, so it's relatively easy to R&R.

Also, Cummins used to offer a discount if you join the Cummins Power Club. This can be significant on a repair this large.
https://www.cummins.com/na/parts-and...mins-powerclub

A thought. If the engine is not under warranty wouldn't it be less expensive to go to a non-Cummins dealer for the repairs (private repair shop)? And many times you can get better quality service. Like so many large dealers, Cummins hires the new kids and trains them, but usually once they get a few years experience they move onto a private shop where they can make more money. A private shop can also perform some desired modifications that a Cummins dealer cannot.
Best of luck!

[hypoxia]

Originally Posted by MarkofSJC

Here's the quote I just got from Cummins for swapping out for the newly redesigned head for the ISX-650 that has EGR but non-DEF. It does include replacement of both cams, which may not be required...

We were looking at this proactively for a coach we're considering purchasing (provided them with the engine serial number of 79398812, which he validated)

They have a coach on the way that just went through this issue - and they have several of these new heads in-stock!

I was at the Newell factory a few weeks ago, they are aware of the problem and have repaired some engines which failed. I would talk with them & see if they can help get Cummins to reduce the bill. I also met a Cummins recent retiree who suggested calling Cummins Care (800) 286-6467 to register your concerns and start a paper trail. When you find the inevitable valve pitting you'll be a step ahead.

I second what Vito suggests, a Cummins certified independent shop would be my choice. They are not all equal.

[Mark D]

Markofsjc

That's a fair price, I had mine done a few years back but it failed so I needed a new turbo and #6 piston liner and Injector. I paid 25k. They did not need to replace the cams.

I had it done at a Cummins shop and if I had to do it again and had a choice I would use a Cummins facility again. The smaller stuff like others suggested I go to a Cummins authorized repair facility.

I think for the scope of the work the head and all the fiddly bits it's better to have the factory do it. The 12 month warranty is great, we had a few leaks and had them fixed right at our site while traveling.

While they are in there put a new EGR cooler in. Costs $1,700 ish and is hard to reach.

All in all after the upgrade my engine runs cooler and seems to be tighter, more responsive.

Mark.

[MarkofSJC]

[QUOTE=vito.a;5347149]Mark that's probably a good price.
However, most of the Cummins ISX650 engine updates have included the newer design pistons with carbon scrapers (times 6). The new style pistons also require new liners. If it requires these parts, then of course that price is going to go up significantly.

QUOTE]

And this is why this forum is such an excellent resource! As it turns out there IS an updated piston design. And, as predicted, it ups the price significantly. See attached.

Thanks VERY MUCH Vito.A for the suggestion!!!

[Monaco Ron]

I find this all very dishonest by Cummins.

They have known about the problem for some time now, having released a Technical Service Bulletin TSB150130 on December 5, 2016.

They have chosen not to inform their customers of the problem so that owners could proactively change to the new head design and have Inconel intake valves installed to avoid disastrous failures like I experienced.

For everyone's knowledge, Inconel is a registered trademark of Special Metals Corporation for a family of austenitic nickel-chromium-based superalloys. Inconel alloys are oxidation-corrosion-resistant materials well suited for service in extreme environments subjected to pressure and heat.

It is a much better material than the metallurgy of the original intake valves.

It appears to me that in order to meet the Emissions guidelines of the day, when they introduced EGR as the solution, their engineers may not have considered the effects of the additional heat introduced into the intake system, would have on the exiting metallurgy of the original intake valves and in particular the ability of the original head design to remove heat from the back end of the head over the #6 cylinder.

Cummins made me an offer to fund 20% of the value of the parts that needed to be replaced due to this valve failure and would not provide any contribution for the labor because the work was not done at a Cummins flagged service location.

When I asked for the labor to be considered, they withdrew the offer.

I have no idea how many of these engines are out there that are identified in the Technical Service Bulletin, but it seems they will fail eventually, it is just a matter of time.

It would be interesting to know because if there is enough interest, maybe Class Action.Org would take this on.

My engine failed at 76,300 miles and the repair cost was $50,000 CDN.

If someone out there can tell me how to attach a PDF file to a post, I can provide a copy of the Technical Service Bulletin that identifies the engines affected.

According to the Technical Service Bulletin the engines affected are

ISX15 CM570
ISX15 CM870
ISX15 CM871
ISX15 CM871 E
ISX15 CM2250
ISX15 CM2250 SN
ISX15 CM2350 X101
QSX15 CM570

[dusterboy318]

I had mine done as most of you know. Got $6,000 in parts from cummins as a discount. I think a class action suit is appropriate but most of us signed waivers to get what little we could out of cummins. I had entire rebuild with the pistons as well. Coach has ran really strong since through mountains and across the country.

[Mod edit]

[Mrchips]

I didn't read through all 33 pages, but is there a mileage, that if it can make it past it should be ok, or is this an issue on ALL years and any mileage?

[Randyman1]

I really believe the trouble is with the coaches that have a DPF in the exhaust and use DEF fluid. Mine was made before that emissions garbage and I have had no problems in 64,000 miles. Several years back when I first got the coach I installed the Ugly Fix which fools the EGR valve into thinking you are above 7,000 feet and keeps it closed so the engine runs cleaner and cooler by not regurgitating it’s own sooty exhaust. I think when they restricted the exhaust with that filter is when the back pressure increased and increased the temperatures in the head mainly at the number 6 cylinder. Just my opinion but backed with some common sense. Randy

[palehorse89]

Originally Posted by Randyman1

I really believe the trouble is with the coaches that have a DPF in the exhaust and use DEF fluid. Mine was made before that emissions garbage and I have had no problems in 64,000 miles. Several years back when I first got the coach I installed the Ugly Fix which fools the EGR valve into thinking you are above 7,000 feet and keeps it closed so the engine runs cleaner and cooler by not regurgitating it’s own sooty exhaust. I think when they restricted the exhaust with that filter is when the back pressure increased and increased the temperatures in the head mainly at the number 6 cylinder. Just my opinion but backed with some common sense. Randy

Randy, I think all the trouble has been with the pre DEF engine's............

[pbensen]

Originally Posted by palehorse89

Randy, I think all the trouble has been with the pre DEF engine's............

The majority of the dropped #6 valve issues have been with the Cummins ISX engines with the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). With this said, there have been plenty of reports of the dropped #6 intake valve happening on the ISX 600hp engines (EGR only). There are plenty of owners that have signed non disclosure agreements with Cummins to lighten the cost of the repairs. Cummins has been doing everything it can to keep this issue from the public. The problem has to do with the combination of the HP rating (increased temperature), the use of the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) system, prolonged non-use, along with the head being released with intake valves that do not tolerate the acidic soot produced by the EGR system.

The bottom line is, any coach that was built with the 600 or 650HP Cummins ISX engine that has not had the latest released head from Cummins installed is sitting on an expensive ticking time bomb. Just imagine this major engine failure happening far away from home on the open road. Get ready to get out your checkbook to write a BIG FAT check!

CURRENT OWNERS AND POTENTIAL BUYERS BEWARE.

[tom chelbana]

From my reading and experience with our ISM engine with EGR problems I suggest one might want to use a Snow methanol/water injection system on their ISX engines. We were having EGR problems ever 30K miles on our 04 ISM engine and when we went to the methanol/water system we didn't have any more issue with EGR system for 8 years and over 100K miles. What we noticed was how clean the intake system was once we started using it. When removing sensors or other components everything was very clean like it had been steam cleaned. We have a Newmar London Aire (18) with a x-15 engine and plan to soon add water injection system to it to keep the intake system clean. Will not use all the time but will maybe 1 to 2 thousand miles for hundred miles.