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Old 01-14-2016, 08:12 PM   #1
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Cummins vs Cat engines

How do cummins & Cat engines stack up against each other. Reliability, repairs , repair dealers etc ?? Been looking at the beaver line 2005 -Plus. They seem to use cats, some with the 525HP. Is that size of engine really necessary? Do you give up MPG going that big? We currently have a cummins 8.3L 330HP in a 40footer & it seems to do fine even with a tow car. We consistently get 8-9MPG. Someone once told me that there isn't a checkered flag at the top of the hill. Would the 400's be fine with a 40-43 FT. Also plan on taking my Harley along too!!

The issues that cummins was having back in 2005-2006. Was that just with the 400 ISL??
Any & all feedback would be greatly appr. BOB
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Old 01-14-2016, 08:29 PM   #2
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The 525s were used in Beaver Patriot Thunders and Marquis rigs. The same sized Beaver Patriot used a smaller engine and seemed to run just fine. Our Patriot has a 400 HP Cummins and gets us where we are going just fine. But, that same year Patriot Thunder had the 525 HP engine. I doubt you really needed that extra power, but all the Beaver Patriot Thunders and Marquis' came configured with it so you have to accept it for those rigs.

Back when I was considering our purchase I went through almost all threads on Cat vs Cummins only to discover they were all the Ford vs Chevy arguments. Suffice it to say that Cat gave up on trying to comply with the EPA regulations and left the on-road marketplace shortly after this time frame.

I am really happy with my Cummins. But, do I think it is better than a similar Cat unit? Not really. They will both get you to where you are going. I think worrying about the engine on these things is way down the list on what you need to look at for a purchasing decision.

Since I have the Cummins and there are a lot of Cummins repair locations it works for me. I have no idea of Cat owners repair experiences.
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Old 01-14-2016, 08:30 PM   #3
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Ford vs GMC the old adage which is best do I need that much power

More horses the easier the drive politically cat and cummins are equal in reliablility

Cat due to current pollution laws have only now again make an OTR engine. From 2008 to current manufacturers usually used Cummins engine for DP use.

Hope that answers some of your questions but you will get other opinions so take what you want and let the rest pass on.

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Old 01-14-2016, 08:52 PM   #4
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Worked in the mining industry for ~30 years. Underground mining is one of the toughest environments to work in, very demanding on equipment due to conditions, hot, steep grades, general wear and tear.

We saw a big swing in power plants in the large underground equipment. Years ago it was Deutz, then migrated to a mix of Cummins, Cat, and Detroit. In the end it seemed like Detroit was dominating.

When me and my wife first started looking for a DP I was keen on the Cat because of the reliability in the underground equipment. We found a very nice Windsor with the Cummins and overall I am very satisfied.

But you know what they say "Nothing Runs Like a CAT"!
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Old 01-14-2016, 09:37 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadshotrod View Post
The issues that cummins was having back in 2005-2006. Was that just with the 400 ISL??
Any & all feedback would be greatly appr. BOB
The 400ISL issue is attributed to a wrist pin manufacturing defect affecting specific engine serial numbers. Here is a link to a thread here. From the details in post #2 - Engine Serial Numbers (ESN) of 46543077 to 46603939.

I have the 400ISL that falls outside the S/N and have not had any issues to-date. Others will chime in here I am sure to talk about their experience with 400ISLs that are within the serial numbers - some no issues/others some issues.

Brian
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:27 PM   #6
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"dadshotrod".....I looked at a used Beaver with the Cat 525 HP. It was exactly what were looking for, with the exception of the engine. We had a Diplomat with a 400 ISL and it was a great engine. I did some research on the Cat 525 and everything I read pointed to horrific mileage with that engine. We passed on the coach.
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Old 01-15-2016, 09:07 AM   #7
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Never quite apples to apples when comparing engines especially in different coaches!

IMO, if the Patriot Thunder of Marquis (not sure what you were looking at) is in good shape, and you like the livability, and it also has good documentation of mechanical care - I would for sure be pleased to own one.

The CAT525 should yield you in the 7MPG area, depending upon what you are towing and how heavy your foot is.

The Thunder and Marquis are heavier coaches then the Patriot, so not a fair comparison of the ISL driven Patriot to those two coaches.

Having more power, gives you a safety margin where you can accelerate faster if needed. (Merging, passing, hill climbing.) But more important then power for going down the road, is the larger displacement Jake Brake gives you much higher Braking Horsepower, and that is a substantial safety edge over the mid or small block engines.

CAT's are usually a bit more expensive for parts, but normal maintenance is the same as say a large block ISM or ISX from Cummins.

A larger engine is loafing, even with the higher weights, vs a mid block engine that is just at, or possibly a bit under the power where it should be, to move a 40' + comfortably.

We have the ISL370(Flashed to 400) in our 40' Country Coach Allure with Tag. It gets the job done, but is quite often without any available extra power to accelerate faster or maintain a speed on a hill climb. It does have a two speed compression Jake Brake, but at 8.9 L of compression, it is perhaps 60% as efficient in Braking Horsepower assist as the BIG BLOCK engines.

I like our coach, and the wife said game over when she saw the galley in this model. But my sweet spot was the Intrigue with the BIG BLOCK Cat optional engine. And the Patriot Thunder and Marquis were on our short list too!

Never say sorry to having a bigger block engine. The overall cost of lower MPG in the coach ownership cost equation, is relatively minor.

Best of luck to you,
Smitty
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Old 01-15-2016, 09:26 AM   #8
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The others said it, really just depends on if you like yellow or red, both are good. I do agree that you don't really go wrong with a bigger engine. The mpg is more due to weight and aerodynamics than the actual engine. If it takes 100 hp to go down the road, it takes a proportional amount of fuel to make that 100 hp - no matter what the engine rating or even to most extent the size of the engine. Yes a bigger engine has a bit more internal friction, and all else being equal the smaller engine will make a little better mpg. But the key here is that there is never a comparison where all else being equal exists.

I do think there is slightly more Cummins service and parts availability, but that decision should not sway you from a MH you like with a Cat engine.
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Old 01-15-2016, 06:19 PM   #9
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Some years ago we toured the Beaver factory and looked at a new Patriot in the showroom. I pledged to someday have one of them. Never did make it and ended up with the present Magna and Cummins. Should have looked for one with the standard 625 HP Cat but I had heard horror stories about the Cat trans they used. So went with the Cummins/Allison combo.
But if we had found one with a CAT in the right floor plan it wouldn't have stopped me from buying it. Cummins are supposed to be cheaper to repair but we only had one CAT and it never needed repairs. We've had two Cummins, the ISC 350 with Banks never needed any repairs either.
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Old 01-15-2016, 06:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
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The Thunder and Marquis are heavier coaches then the Patriot, so not a fair comparison of the ISL driven Patriot to those two coaches.
Not exactly true. The Patriot and Patriot Thunder were identical except for interior finishes and the engine, so the only difference in weight between them would be the difference in engine weight.
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Old 01-15-2016, 11:05 PM   #11
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Not exactly true. The Patriot and Patriot Thunder were identical except for interior finishes and the engine, so the only difference in weight between them would be the difference in engine weight.
Then again, this is not exactly true. The Beaver Patriot Thunder and Marquis do have a stronger frame in the rear to support the additional weight and torque of the 525 engines which results in some additional overall weight to the coach. But, I agree with you conceptually that the additional weight for this does not, in and of itself, warrant the 400 to 525 upshift in engine capability. I found it sort of humorous.
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Old 01-16-2016, 10:54 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Bob&AnnaMari View Post
Then again, this is not exactly true. The Beaver Patriot Thunder and Marquis do have a stronger frame in the rear to support the additional weight and torque of the 525 engines which results in some additional overall weight to the coach. But, I agree with you conceptually that the additional weight for this does not, in and of itself, warrant the 400 to 525 upshift in engine capability. I found it sort of humorous.
Yep, it was a statement that should have been better qualified on my part. Besides a bit more metal for the frame, add inabout 300 lbs more for the Allison 4000, and heavier/more robust ales and differiantal. On top of the heavier engine of the Big Block and added cooling capacity.

They all add up into more weight. It may vary between mdel years too, but i believe I remember differen tank capacities beteen a Patriot Thunder and Patriot I had looked at (?).

But for sure, I'm not real up on Beavers now adays...
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Old 01-16-2016, 11:57 PM   #13
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We have a Cat C-9 400hp and get on an average about 7.3 pulling a Honda Accord but no we had a Ford Edge about 1000lbs heaver. I don't think my mpg will change a lot plus I have all the power I need. The only down side, Cats like clean oil and fuel because of the HEUI pump, I know they all need that, but I change mine a 5k.
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Old 01-17-2016, 12:10 AM   #14
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Our 50,000# Magna with the 650 HP Cummins shows 7.6 overall for 45,000 miles on the VMS. That was before we bought it. Now, it still shows 7.6 even towing our 4,500# Honda Ody. Bigger engine, running slowly (1350 @ 60 mph) and very light throttle.
Bigger doesn't necessarily mean lower fuel mileage either. The Magna gets pretty close to the same mileage as the previous 34,000# Dutch Star with ISC 350/1050 (Banks kit added for 435/1200) towing the same Ody.
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