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Old 05-25-2020, 08:39 PM   #1
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ISX 650 CM871 Dropped valve in #6

Hello all.
Sorry to say that my first thread here concerns major engine troubles. While idling in my back yard coach began skipping and making unsettling cruching noises. Wife had the presence of mind to jump in and switch it off quickly. Disconnection of exhaust from DPF revealed small bits of very heavy metallic particles. Knew this could not be good. Purchased coach 6 months ago with 81k miles. Had done a bit of research here and was aware of the risk of failure with this engine but got a very nice price on coach and decided to roll the dice. After removing head discovered very rear #6 intake valve missing much of its periphery. Residual damage to the rest of the engine is slight attesting to wifes quick action and the fact that engine was idling at time of failure i suppose. Planning to rebuild with latest head and anti polishing piston/liner setup. I'm wondering if anyone here knows of any failures occuring after this latest head/liner/piston combo was installed.

Thanks,
Pete
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:28 PM   #2
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Bad deal, Mr_D has rebuilt his 650 3 times.

Here is another
https://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/cum...-a-401436.html
2 stroker
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Old 05-27-2020, 06:02 PM   #3
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Well that's no fun at all. Yeah seems those 650's are trouble makers. I don't know of any failures with the updated head but there are others with more knowledge on the subject than me. Good luck with it, hopefully the rebuild goes well and is reliable for you.
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Old 05-27-2020, 06:47 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by asuperheat View Post
Well that's no fun at all. Yeah seems those 650's are trouble makers. I don't know of any failures with the updated head but there are others with more knowledge on the subject than me. Good luck with it, hopefully the rebuild goes well and is reliable for you.


The 600hp engines have had this problem also albeit not as many.
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:10 PM   #5
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Picking up new parts for rebuild tomorrow to the tune of $13,900 or so. Using all original Cummins bits. Deleting the egr and dpf as well. Should have it back together in a week or so.
A couple of silver linings to this fiasco. For one I now know much more than before about how the engine bay is put together and how to access hard to get at areas for future service. I also used this occasion to remove and replace shaft seals in the leaky fan drive gearbox. It was much easier to get at with the engine disassembled. While i was at it i made a modification to the fan shroud. The lower half now unbolts so that it can be quickly dropped from the bottom and the fan blade easily removed in the event the gearbox or cooling package needs to come out.

Pete
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:44 AM   #6
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Picking up new parts for rebuild tomorrow to the tune of $13,900 or so. Using all original Cummins bits. Deleting the egr and dpf as well. Should have it back together in a week or so.
A couple of silver linings to this fiasco. For one I now know much more than before about how the engine bay is put together and how to access hard to get at areas for future service. I also used this occasion to remove and replace shaft seals in the leaky fan drive gearbox. It was much easier to get at with the engine disassembled. While i was at it i made a modification to the fan shroud. The lower half now unbolts so that it can be quickly dropped from the bottom and the fan blade easily removed in the event the gearbox or cooling package needs to come out.

Pete
Are you doing all the work yourself? What year and brand if coach did you purchase? Can you post some pictures of the damage and the R&R?
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:03 PM   #7
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Are you doing all the work yourself? What year and brand if coach did you purchase? Can you post some pictures of the damage and the R&R?
I'm doing most of the work myself. I'm having to hire a mobile tech to machine the block for the correct liner protrusion. Cost for him to travel 65 miles and do job is $1500 so thats not so bad. Also dropped the turbo off at rebuild shop this morning. Recieved call from them this afternoon and turbo is heavily damaged from the valve fragments traveling through it. Cost to overhaul is $2650 so again, not so bad.

Pete
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:30 PM   #8
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The offending valve. I noticed that the head of this valve has much more pitting and corrosion than even the other 3 valves in this cylinder. Only reason I can figure is that it is made from a somewhat different material than the others.

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Engine bay with engine stripped down and cooling fan gearbox support and shroud removed.



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Lifting head off with tractor and fork extension. I made a bracket that bolts to oil pan rail of motor and allowed me to lower front of motor using a hydraulic jack to gain some headroom.
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Old 05-28-2020, 07:45 PM   #9
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Attachment 287377

The offending valve. I noticed that the head of this valve has much more pitting and corrosion than even the other 3 valves in this cylinder. Only reason I can figure is that it is made from a somewhat different material than the others.



Attachment 287378

Engine bay with engine stripped down and cooling fan gearbox support and shroud removed.







Attachment 287380

Lifting head off with tractor and fork extension. I made a bracket that bolts to oil pan rail of motor and allowed me to lower front of motor using a hydraulic jack to gain some headroom.


Many believe that the pits are due to corrosion caused by the acid laden soot produced by the EGR system.
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Old 05-28-2020, 07:55 PM   #10
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Im impressed

Your doing a fabulous job.

Congratulations

Keep the pictures coming
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:39 PM   #11
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Many believe that the pits are due to corrosion caused by the acid laden soot produced by the EGR system.
I'm sure that may be true but even so I can't understand how two intake valves right next to each other can be so unevenly affected. My logic is that the conditions they were subjected to could not be much different so that only leaves a difference in the properties of the materials they were constructed from.

Pete
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Old 05-29-2020, 06:49 AM   #12
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Hope your tune and info are coming from some well know fellows in the trucking industry in the Atlanta area known for building bullet proof ISX engines.

I feel your on the right track since you mentioned "proper liner protrusion"
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:19 AM   #13
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Bad deal, Mr_D has rebuilt his 650 3 times.

Here is another
https://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/cum...-a-401436.html
2 stroker
Very harsh. My sympathies to both. The 650 is well known for this problem in the trucking industry. My thoughts are that the design is past its limits and will fail again. I have been told it can be derated in power which helps. May require a new ECM. I don't have any references to this but it may be worth checking. Yes I know it is nice to have all that HP and torque available under the right foot but at what cost.

Looks like you are doing a great job.

Hope it all works out for you.
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Old 05-29-2020, 04:56 PM   #14
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Nothing like jumping in and getting it done, looking good! Keep us updated on the progress!
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