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Old 11-18-2022, 12:03 PM   #43
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According to this thread the Common Rail on ISC/ISL started in 2004, looks like both of you are good.

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/whe...vs-483982.html
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Old 11-18-2022, 01:38 PM   #44
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Best to do would be to check the TSB for the SN range on the ISL engines with the CAPS pump.
Chances are you are good unless the manufacturer used up inventory of CAPS engines to build a 2004-5 coach.



Other good source is the Cummins Quickserve site and see what kind of fuel injection system and or lift pump you have.
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Old 11-18-2022, 09:03 PM   #45
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Chronic problem with older RV stalls is AIR INTRUSION!!!

This is a summary of a thread that I started in late 2019 entitled (Cummins ISC 8.3 Stalls and heals overnight. Fuel pump? ECM? ). Posted in the Monaco users forum.
) The summary below tries to describe my conclusion as to the “Root cause” --- I concluded it was air getting into our fuel supply system and causing our diesel engines to stall --- In short --- I think it’s the low pressure CONNECTORS on the supply lines from fuel tank to lift pump – Total 4 of them. Air gets in – causes the fuel to become foam – thereby causing the pump to run under-lubricated until an internal pressure sensor shuts the engine down. No codes are set – the engine just suddenly shuts down. Won’t restart. Overnight, the air settles out of the foamy fuel – The engine starts right up and runs for many (100 – 200 miles until it happens again. GGGGRRRR!!!! Since installing the FASS, I’ve made two uneventful 2000 mile trips (total 4000) and the rig ran just fine.
A brief recap of my situation – 2004 Monaco Diplomat with 8.3 ISC Cummins/Allison drive train. This thread started because of 3 stalls That I had on a recent trip wherein the engine stalled unexpectedly and then seemed to heal itself over night (see post #1). As I got into trouble shooting mode, I believed that I had a earlier vintage “CAPS” pump system. Two months at Cummins in Tampa determined that mine is a “HPCR” (Hi Pressure Common Rail) system and thus a different lift pump and a “CAPS 2” injector pump that is fed by a Gear pump at 90 -130 PSI. The ECM actually controls the ignition sequence. The Coach manufacturer relocated the Cummins-designed secondary filter configuration from the passenger side of the engine to a driver side compartment for accessibility. My fuel flow is from the tank, through a 10 micron primary filter, through a lift pump, and then up to a gear pump. That pump feeds my relocated secondary, 2 micron.. filter at 110PSI. The output of that filter then connects to the input of the CAPS 2, HPCR pump for much greater pressurization and timely injection.
The Cummins baseline design for mine and earlier engine/fuel injection systems is to utilize a “lift pump” at “key-on” that runs for approx. 15-20 seconds to prime the injection pump and from there the Injection pump takes over and literally sucks fuel (at low vacuum) for about 20-30 feet from the fuel tank --- through the filters and the “resting” lift pump --- all day long!! This “terrible” design is IMHO the source of many of the pump failures and stall issues that so many of us have experienced. From my tank to the lift pump, are 4 low-pressure (vacuum) connections. These are like “quick disconnects” and I believe are quite susceptible to loosening with age, because of deteriorating seals, thus allowing air to be sucked through them ---- any one of these will, over time, allow air to be pulled into the fuel flow. The failure mode is that this air mixing with fuel eventually becomes like “foam”, resulting in a drop in pressure out of the gear pump to the injector pump making it increasingly difficult for the injector pump to create the pressures it needs for efficient ignition. When the supply pressure drops to around 70 PSI, a pressure sensor in the HPCR simply causes the ECM to shut the Injection pump down---no codes are set, no warning given, just dies as if you’d shut off the key!!!
It simply will not start right back up, even though the lift pump is activated, by the ignition key. The clues for me were two-fold; 1) inspection of the primary filter after the 2nd stall (because we always suspect we just bought contaminated fuel) showed that it was half empty/full of air as though I’d just run out of fuel; 2) by the 3rd stall I’d become suspicious of a magical healing process, because by just sitting for a few hours, like overnight, the unit would crank right up and run smoothly. My assertion is that the “foam” becomes real fuel again after a few hours because the air settles out of it and it can be properly pressurized again.
Others have found that their lift pump bolts were improperly tightened and that simply tightening those bolts was sufficient to stop the intrusion of air into the fuel flow. But IMHO, the underlying issue is not where or how, air gets in, it’s the fact that somehow it DOES and will with this “Sucking system”!! My Monaco spent two months at Cummins in Tampa. They ran exhaustive tests with very sophisticated equipment on both my electrical AND fuel systems. They found NOTHING!! I even offered for them to think outside the box and use their professional judgement to pick the two most likely parts they would replace if they were to just ”throw parts at it”!! No one would bite, Finally I got a rationale that went something like this ---- Usually in these intermittent kinds of situations, we ultimately find that some sort of “restriction” is causing the vacuum pressure to increase as the injection pump sucks the fuel, thus causing air to be introduced at places like the low pressure connectors. (translation by me --- This fuel sucking system sucks, but we’re also not fans of the FASS types of systems like you’re considering that puts the fuel supply system under a slight pressure either) ??????
The term “flapper” was used, I guessed that the term referred to a separation of the inner wall lining of the fuel line. All kinds of reasons came up in the forum traffic suggesting that the ULSD mandate for bio diesel causes fuel lines and connector seals and gaskets to deteriorate. Other horror stories included a shop rag getting into the tank, causing the pickup screen to be plugged/restricted. Algae clumps was another possibility. For an HPCR system, even a stuck injector could cause the entire rail pressure to fall below threshold and cause a sudden stall. But IMHO, it all boiled down to ----Air gets sucked in – the pump is starved for fuel – it might even heat up – it must surely be under-lubricated – the amount of air is so great that the fuel turns to foam – adequate pressure cannot be produced – the ECM intervenes to save the pump – STALL!!!! Solution??? STOP the AIR from getting in. The most likely places are two fuel lines --- 1) The feed from the tank to the primary filter (two low pressure connections), 2) the feed from the Primary filter to the input of the lift pump ( two more low pressure connections).
So here’s what I finally did. --- I had a FASS (titanium model) system installed. I’ve just driven 2,000 miles since that install was completed and am happy to report that all went very well. I replaced the fuel supply line from the tank to the input of the FASS pump. That eliminated 2 of the four low-pressure connections. I also replaced the fuel line that goes from the output of the FASS to feed the lift pump thus eliminating the 3rd & 4th low-pressure connections. This also meant that the original primary filter was replaced by the two built-in FASS filters. Pretty hard for air to get in now at all. The FASS still sucks fuel for about 20 ft or so, but the low-pressure connections are ALL gone and there is something in the design of the FASS that’s supposed to remove air also. I have a gage in my dash that shows the FASS pump output pressure (18.5 PSI +- .5 PSI) If the pump ever fails, I’ll know it right away. None of the other OEM plumbing changed. The lift pump operates the same. The ECM doesn’t know the difference. If the FASS pump fails, I will switch it off and a single ball valve will put my configuration back to “native/OEM configuration (Sans the low pressure connections that were the most likely root cause in the first place) --- the objective being to be able to “limp” out of the way of traffic rather than be towed.
The only tweak I will make yet is to include the original primary filter in this configuration, because currently (for expediency) when I bypass the FASS, I have no primary filter --- I want to get it back if I ever have to bypass FASS.
The only other tweak will be to include the Gear pump output gage, in the cabin, on the dash. I still have a gage in the filter compartment, but want to be able to monitor that pressure (110 PSI) as I go down the road. Just having that gage, would likely have forecast that I was about to stall last fall. This fix has been tested over a 2000 mile trip. My fuel mileage appears to be better and the engine ran great. In retrospect, my installer doesn’t believe that fuel lines were the problem and I probably could have left them alone. IMHO, it’s the four low pressure connectors that were/are the fatal flaw in the OEM design. Never-the-less, I would still install a FASS system, With these two gages, in the cabin, if I were making a recommendation to anyone. I also think that being able to return to “native mode” with a FASS bypass is a good fail-safe approach.
Beyond that, I now use Stanadyne lubricity and fuel treatment additives faithfully. The FASS is purportedly operating at a rate that has it cycling excess fuel back through the tank at a much higher rate than the OEM design resulting in a much better “scrubbing” of fuel to better remove contaminants.
Sorry this is so long, but this forum has been a huge help in getting this situation resolved even as the Cummins techs scratched their heads. I felt I owed you a wrap up post. If you don’t want to plow thru all 100 posts, I’d suggest (#1, #74, #83 & #96.). Thanks to all of you who have helped me get to this “FIX”!!
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Old 11-18-2022, 11:37 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacwjames View Post
Best to do would be to check the TSB for the SN range on the ISL engines with the CAPS pump.
Chances are you are good unless the manufacturer used up inventory of CAPS engines to build a 2004-5 coach.



Other good source is the Cummins Quickserve site and see what kind of fuel injection system and or lift pump you have.
Thank you.
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Old 11-18-2022, 11:37 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by CountryFit View Post
According to this thread the Common Rail on ISC/ISL started in 2004, looks like both of you are good.

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/whe...vs-483982.html
Thank you
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Old 11-19-2022, 12:15 AM   #48
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbw6303 View Post
This is a summary of a thread that I started in late 2019 entitled (Cummins ISC 8.3 Stalls and heals overnight. Fuel pump? ECM? ). Posted in the Monaco users forum.
) The summary below tries to describe my conclusion as to the “Root cause” ...
Thanks for sharing. It‘s long but I read it through as there are a lot of great info in it and worth reading. It‘s amazing to see FASS came to your rescue all has been good ever since.

If anyone wonders where your original thread is at, here you go -

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/cum...cm-469287.html
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Old 11-19-2022, 06:34 AM   #49
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According to this thread the Common Rail on ISC/ISL started in 2004, looks like both of you are good.

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/whe...vs-483982.html
Thank you for this information. I appreciate it.
Pete
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Old 11-19-2022, 06:35 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacwjames View Post
Best to do would be to check the TSB for the SN range on the ISL engines with the CAPS pump.
Chances are you are good unless the manufacturer used up inventory of CAPS engines to build a 2004-5 coach.



Other good source is the Cummins Quickserve site and see what kind of fuel injection system and or lift pump you have.
Thank you Jim. I'll do a bit more checking and hope all is well in this regard.
Pete
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Old 11-19-2022, 10:35 AM   #51
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lbw6303 wrote: "The Coach manufacturer relocated the Cummins-designed secondary filter configuration from the passenger side of the engine to a driver side compartment for accessibility. My fuel flow is from the tank, through a 10 micron primary filter, through a lift pump, and then up to a gear pump. That pump feeds my relocated secondary, 2 micron.. filter at 110PSI. The output of that filter then connects to the input of the CAPS 2, HPCR pump for much greater pressurization and timely injection."

So your pushing 110psi thru a 2 micron fuel filter?
Seems to me you could be flirting with the burst rating for most spin on fuel filters, or are you running something rated for those high of pressures? Inquiring minds need to know....
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Old 11-20-2022, 12:39 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine36 View Post
lbw6303 wrote: "The Coach manufacturer relocated the Cummins-designed secondary filter configuration from the passenger side of the engine to a driver side compartment for accessibility. My fuel flow is from the tank, through a 10 micron primary filter, through a lift pump, and then up to a gear pump. That pump feeds my relocated secondary, 2 micron.. filter at 110PSI. The output of that filter then connects to the input of the CAPS 2, HPCR pump for much greater pressurization and timely injection."

So your pushing 110psi thru a 2 micron fuel filter?
Seems to me you could be flirting with the burst rating for most spin on fuel filters, or are you running something rated for those high of pressures? Inquiring minds need to know....
This change was apparently made either by Monaco or The Chassis manufacturer for the HPCR implementation started in 2004, So I use the prescribed filter per Monaco. I think the possible range of pressure out of the "gear pump" is 70 - 130 PSI. I installed a gage and it reads 110 PSI. I believe the "shutdown threshold is at 70PSI. When the fuel gets too foamy from sucking in air, the pressure slowly drops to 70 PSI as you drive all day. A sensor shuts things down when it gets down to that pressure.. the unit won't crank back up until it sits a while (several hours) and the air settles out of the fuel. Then it will crank right up and run until the air intrusion gets too great again. I intend to transfer (by transducer) this gage to my dashboard. My theory is that I could have predicted the stalls when the Pressure dropped to about 70PSI.
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Old 11-20-2022, 06:38 PM   #53
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Most (all??) Of these older rigs suck fuel about 30 ft or so through a supply line to a filter to a lift pump. Roughly 3-4 low pressure connectors are in that chain. That's the primary entry point for air that then mixes with the fuel to become foam". Older lift pumps had loose bolts that alo allowed air to be pulled in. Unless you change those low pressure connections, you will almost certainly have an air-intrusion issue eventually. IMHO, the NTSB needs to venture in and force a recall to permanently remedy the situation. As is, users end up scratching their heads and throwing lots of expensive parts at the problem. It's forums like this that finally get to the bottom of it, but the process is brutal. Bottom line--- stop the air from being sucked in!!!!
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Old 11-23-2022, 07:47 AM   #54
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Well said Ibw6303. I might add to anyone wanting to install the FASS it’s not really an easy install for everyone or every coach depending on how you want to install it. The video Jacwjames mentioned is a must see and I too did the same type of install making my own bracket and isolator assy. It’s all relative to your skill set and understanding of how it’s done. The video is long but very good. Look at others post on this Forum with pictures.
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Old 11-24-2022, 12:04 AM   #55
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Update, with a problem

I know you all like FASS, so will I, but it‘s on my second phase . Tomorrow is our 21st day in this park, we suppose to move out, but engine won‘t fire up still. Have to use the option for a week with a fee. But that is ok.

Received the pump from M&D Monday evening and started to work on it since yesterday. Took the old one out, got all fresh o-rings and washers from Cummins, and put all old fittings on to the new body and installed, no drama. But...

Filled up the primary filter with fuel, preheated the engine for a few cycles, the fuel was transferred to the second filter, about 3/4 full, good! The pump worked. Cranked the engine, not firing up. Removed the 2nd filter, saw the fuel was back flow, good, at least CAPS pump tried to pull it, just not enough fuel to it. Now the problem - the primary filter stayed in 1/3 full after more cycles, not getting replenishment. I am thinking there are a few possibilities -
1) The hose between the primary filter and tank leaks air;
2) The strainer in the tank is clogged up with microbe/algae;
3) Bad fuel - Costco‘s bio mass is no good in cold weather.

Anything else am I missing? Now what to do? Have thought about to use a 5 gallon can to feed the primary filter directly, at least let us get to another park and buy some time, but the hose connector has to be made and it won‘t go far.

Another option is to replace the entire length of the hose, it‘ll take time. Clean the tank could be another but the tank is hard to access. Tow to a shop? Find a mobile diesel guy? Any suggestions?
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Old 11-24-2022, 09:04 AM   #56
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Probably the easiest thing to try is pulling fuel out of a 5 gallon container. This would eliminate everything to do with the hose and tank. Just need a short length of hose with correct fitting to attach to primary filter. If it pulls fuel when you turn the key to let the lift pump cycles then try to start.



If it doesn't start then it would indicate a problem with the CAPS pump and/or ECM. Do you have a way to get fault codes?
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