Oil test results

[Mr_D]

Iron shows 143 after 9739 miles and water was a positive but negative on the antifreeze.

What should the iron be and why would it be high like that?

[dennis45]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

Iron shows 143 after 9739 miles and water was a positive but negative on the antifreeze.

What should the iron be and why would it be high like that?

Can you give us a copy of the report to get an idea of the Whole Picture? Was this sample before or after your failure? Was the oil changed when you bought the coach? Do you have a sample of the new oil to compare?

[Steve Ownby]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

Iron shows 143 after 9739 miles and water was a positive but negative on the antifreeze.

What should the iron be and why would it be high like that?

The Cummins ISM which is a 10.8 liter engine shows a universal average iron of 17. Mine typically runs 7-13 over the 8 years I've owned it. The big 15 liter ISX would certainly be higher but 143 certainly points to some issue. Iron can come from many sources and the engine block/cylinder walls are certainly high on the list.


Steve Ownby
Full time since '07

[Mr_D]

Hopefully it'll come through. This was BEFORE the engine failure and I didn't get it till today.

[deandec]

On my little C8.3L with 95,000 miles, iron is constant at 5 parts. Universal Average is 15.

Seems like Premier could have had info on hand before sale?

[2 Stroker]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

Hopefully it'll come through. This was BEFORE the engine failure and I didn't get it till today.

Where did the sample go to take so long. I pull one on my C9 because of high copper on 3-6-15 and got an email back 3-11-15 and then got it in letter form 3-13, went to Peterson Cat, Eugene
2 stroker

[dennis45]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

Hopefully it'll come through. This was BEFORE the engine failure and I didn't get it till today.

High Fe but others are near reasonable amounts which kind of indicates the problem was not a combustion area problem such as Pistons, upper end bushings etc.
Did the coach sit in outside storage for a while? I'm thinking water down the air intake? Or condensation? Do you suppose water could have entered either Intake or Exhaust (not sure how it could get in the Exhaust but) and caused a seized valve stem to guide.
Did you put any miles on before you pulled this sample? Water should burn off very quickly is why I ask.
Lots of questions. Don't suppose they would share any photos they may have taken of the failure?
How is the air filter mounted and is there any way for water to accumulate in this area? Do you know much about the history of this coach? Outside storage? Did the PO like to pressure wash it and maybe fill the intake?
I'm not familiar enough with this engine to know if this is a common failure on this model or not but in general, I have not heard of this problem.
Any Cummins Techs listening in on this?

I used to make my living on failures like this. Find them intriguing. Broken pieces will tell the story. Just need the right coroner on the job.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by dennis45

High Fe but others are near reasonable amounts which kind of indicates the problem was not a combustion area problem such as Pistons, upper end bushings etc.
Did the coach sit in outside storage for a while? I'm thinking water down the air intake? Or condensation? Do you suppose water could have entered either Intake or Exhaust (not sure how it could get in the Exhaust but) and caused a seized valve stem to guide.
Did you put any miles on before you pulled this sample? Water should burn off very quickly is why I ask.
Lots of questions. Don't suppose they would share any photos they may have taken of the failure?
How is the air filter mounted and is there any way for water to accumulate in this area? Do you know much about the history of this coach? Outside storage? Did the PO like to pressure wash it and maybe fill the intake?
I'm not familiar enough with this engine to know if this is a common failure on this model or not but in general, I have not heard of this problem.
Any Cummins Techs listening in on this?

I used to make my living on failures like this. Find them intriguing. Broken pieces will tell the story. Just need the right coroner on the job.

No pictures of the failed engine.
Rig was stored inside at Premier, no idea before that other then it looks like it was stored inside.
Air intake is low down on the passenger side just in front of the rear "bumper" and well protected.
Sample was taken before we drove it about 3 miles a couple weeks before we bought it. Wasn't enough to really warm the engine up.
Apparently this failure is common from what I'm finding, seems to be only the 2007 (DOHC) 650 HP versions. Cummins NW has admitted to having four of them in for repairs for the same thing, dropped valve in #6. Two were Class 8 trucks and now two MH's, ours being the last.
Cummins did an investigation some while ago and has issued new heads and valves to take care of the admitted problem.

[JohnFreyja]

I'll be following this incident as I have a Cat C-13 and after an oil analysis last fall I found that the copper content was very high. Cat told me to go ahead and put more miles on and then have another analysis but we are parked in Palm Springs until at least the end of the month. No symptoms of any problem yet. Air intake is high near the roof passenger side at very rear.

[Scottybdivin]

On my pre purchase oil sample for our ISM, it was 29. I had no idea at the time what the type of oil or change interval. I have since learned all of that data. For comparison, the Fe was 27 for my Onan 10K. i have since changed the oil on bolth and will sample again at the end of the season.

[dennis45]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

No pictures of the failed engine.
Rig was stored inside at Premier, no idea before that other then it looks like it was stored inside.
Air intake is low down on the passenger side just in front of the rear "bumper" and well protected.
Sample was taken before we drove it about 3 miles a couple weeks before we bought it. Wasn't enough to really warm the engine up.
Apparently this failure is common from what I'm finding, seems to be only the 2007 (DOHC) 650 HP versions. Cummins NW has admitted to having four of them in for repairs for the same thing, dropped valve in #6. Two were Class 8 trucks and now two MH's, ours being the last.
Cummins did an investigation some while ago and has issued new heads and valves to take care of the admitted problem.

Sounds like Cummins knows they have a problem. Are they going full pop or partial? I bet you are relived.
In light of what you say, I'm guessing the water might be condensation from short spell runs and not getting fully up to temp.
Once you get it back on the road, you might want to grab a sample every 2-3 K to keep an eye on things for the first while. Cummins might even buy into that for their benefit.Try and use a lab that turns their reports out a little more timely.
I was involved with a couple of their KT19 nat gas engines a few years back that had some issues and once they got over the initial shock, they went out of their way to resolve the problem. Took a while but they got it done....
Good luck.

[Steve Ownby]

Originally Posted by dennis45

Sounds like Cummins knows they have a problem. Are they going full pop or partial? I bet you are relived.

In light of what you say, I'm guessing the water might be condensation from short spell runs and not getting fully up to temp.

Once you get it back on the road, you might want to grab a sample every 2-3 K to keep an eye on things for the first while. Cummins might even buy into that for their benefit.Try and use a lab that turns their reports out a little more timely.

I was involved with a couple of their KT19 nat gas engines a few years back that had some issues and once they got over the initial shock, they went out of their way to resolve the problem. Took a while but they got it done....

Good luck.

Good ideas from Dennis. I have found both Blackstone & JG Lube services to both be great. I use Blackstone for engine because I started with them & like the history. JG is great for the Allison.

While the engine is apart you might get them to install an oil sampling port with a remote sampling valve mounted back at the rear of the engine. You can then take a sample right out of an oil passage while running & get a pristine sample. I did this on my Allison & may do it for the Cummins.


Steve Ownby
Full time since '07

[dennis45]

Originally Posted by Steve Ownby

Good ideas from Dennis. I have found both Blackstone & JG Lube services to both be great. I use Blackstone for engine because I started with them & like the history. JG is great for the Allison.

While the engine is apart you might get them to install an oil sampling port with a remote sampling valve mounted back at the rear of the engine. You can then take a sample right out of an oil passage while running & get a pristine sample. I did this on my Allison & may do it for the Cummins.


Steve Ownby
Full time since '07

I like the sample port idea. Presently, I take them from the dipstick tube with a sample pump and "It Works" but one of these days I'm gonna install the sample ports. After my nap......LOL


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[CampingCajun]

I use Blackstone Labs also. Their turn around time is pretty quick with an e-mail with the results.