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Old 02-27-2020, 01:25 PM   #1
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Starting Issue

I have a 2004 Cummins ISC 8.3 in a 2004 Revolution 40C

I just had the Lift Pump replaced. The old one was leaking.

The issue was that the engine was very hard to start. It cranked fine but would only start after cranking 30-45 seconds.
The lift pump was leaking. So it was replaced. When I picked it up it was starting fine. Problem solved - not so fast.
I’ve had it in my shop and it was starting fine. , until today.
It’s doing the same thing.

I put a pressure tester on the second filter and it shows about 12lbs of fuel pressure. I can’t seem to find what it should be.

What fuel pressure should I have at the filter just before it goes into the injector pump?

This may be a clue -
I’m in Austin Texas and it has been warm here since I got it back. It has started fine everyday. Today it is cold and it is having difficulty starting. This might not be anything.

Any thoughts?
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:13 PM   #2
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I would suspect the intake grid heater is not working. It warm weather is doesn't do much, in cold weather it is vital to normal starting.

As to the lift pump, look in the Cummins forum for posts by IMPRSD. He has written a lot about the pump and linked to service literature.
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Old 02-28-2020, 11:46 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray,IN View Post
I would suspect the intake grid heater is not working. It warm weather is doesn't do much, in cold weather it is vital to normal starting.

As to the lift pump, look in the Cummins forum for posts by IMPRSD. He has written a lot about the pump and linked to service literature.


I believe you are correct. I left the block heater on last night and it started right up this morning.
I also installed a fuel pressure gauge and I get 18 psi until the lift pump cycles off.

Thank you
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Old 02-28-2020, 12:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
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I would suspect the intake grid heater is not working. It warm weather is doesn't do much, in cold weather it is vital to normal starting.

As to the lift pump, look in the Cummins forum for posts by IMPRSD. He has written a lot about the pump and linked to service literature.
I agree with Ray, having had many marginal starting diesels in the past, temperature or heaters were crucial as were batteries

Most of the ones I had issues with were either IHC or Detroit but a diesel is a diesel and you have to have everything right for a quick start
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Old 02-28-2020, 01:20 PM   #5
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At times that it's a tad cold outside, and the heater block has not been on to help, I've found that do two full 'wait to start' cycles, helps on starting. (Two heater grid cycles.).

Best of luck, and hope it continues to have been cold weather start up issues!!
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Old 02-28-2020, 09:54 PM   #6
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The grid heater is fused, I have no idea of location.
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Old 02-28-2020, 10:44 PM   #7
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Great post and great answers.

What if I don't have shore power?

Does the block heater work on 12V? I think not. But what I don't know is if the engine block heater will work on generator power?

And is this cold starting problem eliminated if you have a FASS or AirDog electric pump?
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Old 02-29-2020, 03:26 AM   #8
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Great post and great answers.

What if I don't have shore power?

Does the block heater work on 12V? I think not. But what I don't know is if the engine block heater will work on generator power?

And is this cold starting problem eliminated if you have a FASS or AirDog electric pump?
Block heaters use 120 volt only.

Some will be wired to inverter power but you should only run that setup for an hour or two.
They all will run on generator power.

If your intake heaters are not working, the block heater is not a substute or replacement. You should get the intake heater fixed, if not working.
Cold diesels smoke and soot isn't good for the exhaust system.
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:48 AM   #9
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I’m trying to determine if my grid heater is dead or if there is 12v getting to it.
Attached is a picture of what I think is the grid heater. Am I correct? Is this the grid heater.
I have tested these 2 terminals and there is no voltage during the warm up cycle.
If this is the grid heater I’ll start tracing the wires to find a fuse or relay that is bad.


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Old 02-29-2020, 11:19 AM   #10
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Certainly a heater, you must have a fuse or the controller that initiates the current and times it out is bad
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Old 02-29-2020, 03:50 PM   #11
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I too wondered about these battery terminals on top of my ISC-350 do and what they were for? So I did some research and this is what I found... thanks to another forum member. Note: This information was written for Cummins diesel trucks, but I think it will apply to our RV applications as well:

A 12V grid heater is not the same as a 120V block heater.

And in general, diesel engines need heat to ignite the fuel.

A cold diesel is hard to start because the air entering the combustion chamber may be too cold to allow for the ignition of the fuel. Thus, diesels need some method to warm the air in the combustion chamber for the fuel to ignite. A) They can use the old style method of "glow plugs." B) They use a 12V grid heater. Or C) The owner can plug in a 120V block heater if installed.

Note: In hangar type maintenance facilities, huge room heaters assist in engine starting.

Cummins uses a grid heater type and this heating element will turn on-and-off until the compression in the cylinder alone is enough to heat the air and allow combustion to occur.

The heater grid heats the air as it passes over the grid, but it will not come on until the outside air temperature drops below 59-degrees. (Typically.) This means you will not see a voltage in 59+ degree weather.

Does anyone know what part measures temperature and what part controls the grid heater? Also, there has to be a relay/solenoid for this function. So I guess I need to find a circuit diagram for the grid heater too?

Both glow plugs and grid heaters will cycle even after the engine is running until a predetermined temp is reached. How hot is the air heated to? ...I don't know, but Id be willing to guess that it will get hot enough to cause serious burns if you were to try to hold one in your hands while heated.

Q: In cool and cold weather, my voltmeter jumps up and down. Is a belt slipping?

When the temperature is below 59 degrees, the intake manifold heater cycles to warm the air entering the cylinders. This grid heater may draw more current than the alternator can produce when running, so the voltmeter will drag-down when the grid heater cycles on-and-off. And this cycling may continue for several minutes to 15 minutes or more in cold weather.

Q: Will the diesel start in subzero weather?

The Cummins B will reliably start at temperatures to -20 degrees F without the block heater, but the engine is much happier if the block heater is used.

Plus it may take several manifold heat/start cycles before the engine fires and continues to run. You can also expect a large smoke cloud when the engine starts, and the you will hear accessory whine, knocking, and vibration until things warm-up.

The engine block heater usage is recommended as follows:

1) With temperatures above 40 deg F, the block heater is not needed.

2) With temperatures between 40 deg F and 0 deg F, the block heater is suggested.

3) With temperatures below 0 deg F, the block heater is required.


For more information, here's a website link:

Cold Weather Diesel Operation
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Old 02-29-2020, 08:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
Great post and great answers.

What if I don't have shore power?

Does the block heater work on 12V? I think not. But what I don't know is if the engine block heater will work on generator power?

And is this cold starting problem eliminated if you have a FASS or AirDog electric pump?
120VAC Block heater(heats coolant) is entirely different from 12V grid heater(heats intake manifold air)
BTW, never use starting fluid in a Cummins engine. Exciting and expensive things can happen very fast.
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:54 PM   #13
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Ray,IN makes a very good point. And that's why you need to run your Block Heater at least 1 hour before you start your engine on a very cold day (like <32F). Maybe only 30 minutes if you are in 32-40F weather.

Also, if you followed the website link to learn more about this air heaters, you need to leave your key on for 30seconds to 1 minute before you start your engine do the air heater can have some positive effect!

WHAT ELSE IS IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER WHEN STARING YOUR ENGINE IN SUB-32F WEATHER?

STORY TIME: The first time I tried starting a 330HP CAT in sub 32F weather, I was in Calgary, Canada and the day before was 65F.

Then overnight a cold front rolled int and that morning my engine would not start... because 1) I did not let the grid heater work for 30 seconds to 1-minute; and 2) my engine batteries were not strong enough to crank the engine.

Note: These same batteries always worked well in climates, but I also knew they were getting old and were on the weak side when it came to cranking Amps.

So my point is this: If you head for cold climates with weak batteries, you can't expect them to preform in sub 32F temperatures.

Fortunately, I had one of those large 1100amp battery boosters and I was able to get my engine started... but it was still really cold outside and not much fun going though the "oh-S**t-storm" after the turning the key "more-right" and that did not make a difference when the engine would not crank.
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Old 03-02-2020, 09:09 AM   #14
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IMNPRSD, my Spartan chassis has a built-in gauge cycling period for a different reason, but it is also good for allowing time for the grid heater to cycle.
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