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Old 02-14-2020, 02:36 PM   #1
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What EGT's are you seeing?

For those of you with EGT gages, please tell me what temps you are seeing under different loads. In preparation for possibly upgrading the HP of my 2000 ISC-350, I installed a FASS Titanium fuel pump/filter combination, a fuel pressure gage, and an AutoMeter EGT gage. The coach is a 2000 Monaco Dynasty 36, which weighs just over 30,000#, pulling a 2000 Silverado Z71 that weighs about 5300#.

The AutoMeter EGT gage (#5844) uses a separate amplifier (#5257) mounted near the thermocouple which converts the tiny signal coming from the thermocouple into a signal robust enough to be carried through as much as 75 feet of plain copper wire. On my previous coach (1993 Dynasty 36 with mechanical 8.3-250 engine), the EGT gage I installed required special thermocouple wire for the long run between the thermocouple and the gage head and was a much more difficult installation, and its response was noticeably more sluggish than this amplifier-equipped model.

I installed the thermocouple at the inlet to the turbo through a 1/8 NPT hole drilled and tapped into the exhaust manifold.

With 10-12 PSI boost, 1650 RPM, cruising at about 62 MPH, the EGT is 1000-1050 degrees F. What got my attention was that when accelerating at full throttle and max boost (24 PSI) from a rest area, it takes the coach about a half-mile to reach 62 MPH. Under those conditions, EGT will rise as high as 1320-1340 degrees F. That surprised me.

For those of you with real-world PERSONAL experience and an EGT gage, please tell me some typical EGT’s you have seen. Please give me as much specific info about the conditions existing at the EGT’s you see. It’s OK if you have a different engine or mechanical combination, just try to give me as much info as possible.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 02-14-2020, 04:14 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanwill View Post
For those of you with EGT gages, please tell me what temps you are seeing under different loads. In preparation for possibly upgrading the HP of my 2000 ISC-350, I installed a FASS Titanium fuel pump/filter combination, a fuel pressure gage, and an AutoMeter EGT gage. The coach is a 2000 Monaco Dynasty 36, which weighs just over 30,000#, pulling a 2000 Silverado Z71 that weighs about 5300#.

The AutoMeter EGT gage (#5844) uses a separate amplifier (#5257) mounted near the thermocouple which converts the tiny signal coming from the thermocouple into a signal robust enough to be carried through as much as 75 feet of plain copper wire. On my previous coach (1993 Dynasty 36 with mechanical 8.3-250 engine), the EGT gage I installed required special thermocouple wire for the long run between the thermocouple and the gage head and was a much more difficult installation, and its response was noticeably more sluggish than this amplifier-equipped model.

I installed the thermocouple at the inlet to the turbo through a 1/8 NPT hole drilled and tapped into the exhaust manifold.

With 10-12 PSI boost, 1650 RPM, cruising at about 62 MPH, the EGT is 1000-1050 degrees F. What got my attention was that when accelerating at full throttle and max boost (24 PSI) from a rest area, it takes the coach about a half-mile to reach 62 MPH. Under those conditions, EGT will rise as high as 1320-1340 degrees F. That surprised me.

For those of you with real-world PERSONAL experience and an EGT gage, please tell me some typical EGT’s you have seen. Please give me as much specific info about the conditions existing at the EGT’s you see. It’s OK if you have a different engine or mechanical combination, just try to give me as much info as possible.

Thanks in advance!
Don't have a ISC, I have an ISM, but 65-75 cruise, am running 900 to 1000 f. At full throttle [in my case 32 psi] 1350 f and up. At that temp, I keep an eye on it and let off on the throttle if it stays there for more than 30 seconds or so. It is handy on the hills though, any time it goes over 1350, time to downshift or let off the gas a bit.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:54 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanwill View Post

With 10-12 PSI boost, 1650 RPM, cruising at about 62 MPH, the EGT is 1000-1050 degrees F. What got my attention was that when accelerating at full throttle and max boost (24 PSI) from a rest area, it takes the coach about a half-mile to reach 62 MPH. Under those conditions, EGT will rise as high as 1320-1340 degrees F. That surprised me.

Thanks in advance!

I don't know what your turbo boost is supposed to be for your coach.

On our '95 Dynasty, the C8.3 mechanical engine had a Banks conversion plate on the P7100 injection pump, which in effect increased the fuel delivery. The turbo boost was about 24 PSI at full throttle under full load, and the EGTs were about 1350 deg F. Bill Duckwitz said that he didn't think the engine would survive that high exhaust temperature for very long, and advised me to install a turbo boost fooler to increase the turbo boost to around 30 PSI. This effectively reduced the EGTs to around 1100 deg F. at full throttle under full load, with a substantial increase in horsepower.

Also, more information. Later, the intercooler failed. Suddenly, at full throttle the max boost was 24 PSI, and EGT was around 1300 deg. F, and there was a noticeable decrease in horsepower. Once the intercooler was fixed, at full throttle the max boost was 30 PSI, and EGT was around 1100 deg. F, and the horsepower was back to normal.

So, again, I'm not familiar with your engine or your coach, but in my mind high EGTs can be the result of low turbo boost. I have also read that a restricted exhaust system can cause low turbo boost.

Hope that is helpful in some way.

Jim
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Old 02-18-2020, 09:06 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Papa_Jim View Post
I don't know what your turbo boost is supposed to be for your coach.

On our '95 Dynasty, the C8.3 mechanical engine had a Banks conversion plate on the P7100 injection pump, which in effect increased the fuel delivery. The turbo boost was about 24 PSI at full throttle under full load, and the EGTs were about 1350 deg F. Bill Duckwitz said that he didn't think the engine would survive that high exhaust temperature for very long, and advised me to install a turbo boost fooler to increase the turbo boost to around 30 PSI. This effectively reduced the EGTs to around 1100 deg F. at full throttle under full load, with a substantial increase in horsepower.

Also, more information. Later, the intercooler failed. Suddenly, at full throttle the max boost was 24 PSI, and EGT was around 1300 deg. F, and there was a noticeable decrease in horsepower. Once the intercooler was fixed, at full throttle the max boost was 30 PSI, and EGT was around 1100 deg. F, and the horsepower was back to normal.

So, again, I'm not familiar with your engine or your coach, but in my mind high EGTs can be the result of low turbo boost. I have also read that a restricted exhaust system can cause low turbo boost.

Hope that is helpful in some way.

Jim
Having a hard time understanding how increased fuel and increased boost can lower your egt's?
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Old 02-19-2020, 02:22 AM   #5
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PapaJim: You said you think high EGTs can be the result of low turbo boost, but you also said your CAC failed. Why don't you think this was the problem?

I think it's more likely your boost decrease is related to HP decrease? I.e., your turbo was not spinning as fast because your CAC failed.

Do you think this is more likely? What does your mechanic think?

I'm also curious: What brand of "fooler" power module you used?

Note: I put a fooler on my engine last summer from Ag Diesel #12100; and I got only 1" more MP. ...And my HP went up 20% from 350HP to 420HP on the dyno!

It sounds like all your gauges are accurate so I don't know why your turbo is so much more sensitive? My turbo is a Holset 40 and maybe this is all dependent on type of turbo-impeller style?

I'm looking into this if I need to overhaul my turbo. ...Meaning, I may change the impeller to a "bat wing" style aluminum material and not go with the stock version, but I have not found any information on this.

I don't suppose you modified your turbo and that's why your MP responds to changes in HP?
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Old 02-19-2020, 05:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanwill View Post
For those of you with EGT gages, please tell me what temps you are seeing under different loads. In preparation for possibly upgrading the HP of my 2000 ISC-350, I installed a FASS Titanium fuel pump/filter combination, a fuel pressure gage, and an AutoMeter EGT gage. The coach is a 2000 Monaco Dynasty 36, which weighs just over 30,000#, pulling a 2000 Silverado Z71 that weighs about 5300#.

The AutoMeter EGT gage (#5844) uses a separate amplifier (#5257) mounted near the thermocouple which converts the tiny signal coming from the thermocouple into a signal robust enough to be carried through as much as 75 feet of plain copper wire. On my previous coach (1993 Dynasty 36 with mechanical 8.3-250 engine), the EGT gage I installed required special thermocouple wire for the long run between the thermocouple and the gage head and was a much more difficult installation, and its response was noticeably more sluggish than this amplifier-equipped model.

I installed the thermocouple at the inlet to the turbo through a 1/8 NPT hole drilled and tapped into the exhaust manifold.

With 10-12 PSI boost, 1650 RPM, cruising at about 62 MPH, the EGT is 1000-1050 degrees F. What got my attention was that when accelerating at full throttle and max boost (24 PSI) from a rest area, it takes the coach about a half-mile to reach 62 MPH. Under those conditions, EGT will rise as high as 1320-1340 degrees F. That surprised me.

For those of you with real-world PERSONAL experience and an EGT gage, please tell me some typical EGT’s you have seen. Please give me as much specific info about the conditions existing at the EGT’s you see. It’s OK if you have a different engine or mechanical combination, just try to give me as much info as possible.

Thanks in advance!
Van, all we have is the stock 8.3 in a 38"-39" foot Camelot. The only mod so far has been the FASS lift pump which I believe will make the engine last a long time. With that being said I really wanted to up the power but only for climbing hills. On flat ground there is more than enough power and we get fairly decent mileage. I have been on the fence about installing a tune fooler or even putting a tune in the OEM ECM. I have thought about installing a meth injection unit that can either be activated by boost or with a switch when approaching a steep grade. The meth injection will increase power but as a side effect it will also lower EGT's significantly. Climbing steep grades is really the only time we need more power. Snow performance makes a unit with just about everything you would need to make the swap. I think they have different levels of kits but it might be worth looking into. That may be the route I go. Just something to think about.
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:42 AM   #7
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Having a hard time understanding how increased fuel and increased boost can lower your egt's?

My understanding of it goes something like this. More knowledgeable minds may be able to shed better light on it.


To provide the desired horsepower, a determined amount of fuel is metered to the engine. To properly burn that fuel and at the same time provide the necessary air flow to cool the cylinders, a determined amount of air is delivered to the engine.


Most diesel engines are capable of burning a lot more fuel and in turn putting out a lot more horsepower than when they are originally manufactured. As I understand it, the trick is to establish that balance between fuel and air to properly burn the fuel. More horsepower can be obtained by delivering more fuel, provided that enough air can be delivered to properly burn that fuel and cool the cylinders.


That explanation seems to match my experience with my old C8.3 Cummins. A previous owner had installed a Banks modification to the injection pump which delivered more fuel to the engine. Because the same amount of air was still being supplied to the engine, this caused an increase in EGTs. When the air supply was increased, the fuel was properly burned, and EGTs returned to normal parameters.


Jim
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Old 03-27-2020, 01:13 PM   #8
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VanWill: Thanks for sharing your EGT vs RPM numbers. I also understand you modified your Turbo Actuator so you get 30" of boost. If so, did you see your EGT go down when under 80% power?

Do you think you got more HP after modifying your Actuator?

Did your EGT go up (more) at full power and 30" of boost vs. back when you were running at 24" of boost?

Was it worth going from 24" - 30" of boost?

What sort of EGT guidelines are you now following?
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:11 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
VanWill: Thanks for sharing your EGT vs RPM numbers. I also understand you modified your Turbo Actuator so you get 30" of boost. If so, did you see your EGT go down when under 80% power?

Do you think you got more HP after modifying your Actuator?

Did your EGT go up (more) at full power and 30" of boost vs. back when you were running at 24" of boost?

Was it worth going from 24" - 30" of boost?

What sort of EGT guidelines are you now following?
Imnprsd,

I think I've answered most of your questions in my post from a few minutes ago. But to recap:

NO--No change in power. There was no change in power, nor did I expect any. If there was any power increase, it was insignificant. Like with the installation of the FASS fuel pump, I was doing this in ANTICIPATION of adding fueling. I got no increase in performance from the FASS pump, but expected none. I installed it as "insurance" for when I added fueling and put more strain on the existing injection pump's supply pump.
• EGT's went down under ALL conditions, including WOT (especially WOT). It is more difficult to observe and document results at anything less than WOT because you would have hundreds of "data points" in a three-dimensional spreadsheet that listed EGT, Load, Boost, and RPM.
• I increased boost ONLY in anticipation of adding fuel...no other reason. With a stock ISC-350 giving 1340*F EGT, I would be hesitant to add fueling if stock EGT could not be reduced.
• In answer to your question about what EGT guidelines I'm using, I can only tell you my personal OPINION. I know that before I installed the EGT gage, I would routinely operate my engine at WOT for longer periods than I do now after having seen how high the stock EGT was. So, what is my high limit for EGT? For now, it is 1340*F, the temperature my stock engine reached before any modifications. Do I have a reliable basis for that limit? NO. I base it on nothing other than PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I know that my engine has survived quite well on EGT's that I had no idea were so high. I have repeatedly tried to get an answer from Cummins for an "acceptable" EGT both "Sustained" and for "X minutes" and have gotten no answer. I THINK they have published numbers for other engines, but I've not gotten an answer for the ISC-350. Most (if not ALL) Banks installations added boost in addition to adding fuel, and I SUSPECT controlling EGT was at least part of the reason for doing so. On the only Banks ISC-350 installation I have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with, the owner told me the product limited his EGT to 1250*F, at which point it began "de-rating" (reducing fueling regardless of accelerator pedal position).

And let me repeat that I have replaced my rusted-out muffler with an Aero Turbine 4040XL. I chose that model only because it was a good-quality stainless steel unit at a fraction of the cost of the OEM muffler. I expected NO performance increase, nor did I get any. It is slightly more noisy than the original, but not objectionable. I DID NOT choose the 4040XL with any delusions of performance increase nor reduction of EGT.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:12 PM   #10
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Thanks to Imnprsd

Thanks once again for your meticulously detailed post about installation of the FASS fuel pump system. I might have bought Bully Dog had I not read your post. Great job!
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