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Old 07-07-2020, 08:43 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
Today I plugged the turbo compressor side air line that connects to the actuator bellows, and now there is no air pressure to overcome the spring pressure that holds my waste gate closed.

My assumption is that the turbine would spin faster and drive the compressor wheel to deliver more air into the engine. And since diesels like to run lean my expectation was that my EGTs would all be lower.

The funny thing is: My MP gauge only reads +1PSI, but my EGT numbers are lower across the board, and I don't know why?

I understand that a faster spinning turbine will make the compressor side drive more air through the Charge Air Cooler (CAC) and that is supposed to result in high boost pressure (I was expecting 30-32 PSI) but I only got 26 PSI.

So on one hand, if my EGT number are lower, and they appear to be; and my MP gauge has barely inched-up 1-PSI to 26 PSI max at sea level, then maybe my boost pressure is actually higher than what is being displayed on my electric MP gauge? IDK, but I will try to find out why?

Can anyone tell me how and where my Freightliner electric Manifold Pressure (MP) gauge receives it's information?

A) Is is this information coming directly from the ECM? ...Or B) is there a MAP like sensor mounted somewhere on the cold air side and my gauge interprets that.

Note: Along with lower EGT numbers, I even think I have more horse power, but I will not be able to verify this until I can visit Ag-Diesel in Indiana.

So to recap:

* I installed an Ag-Diesel #12100 in my 2003-ISC-350-CAPS engine and now I get 420HP on the dyno...

* But my EGT numbers were very borderline (1350+) whenever my RPM dropped below 1800 when climbing most grades...

* Then I plugged the turbo actuator boost line to "choke-off" the air to the bellows inside the actuator, and now my waste gate does not open at all...[/B]

* And at this point I was expecting 30-32 PSI of boost pressure, but I only got 26 psi. However, my EGT number all appear to be under 1300... I.e., lower after I plugged the air line vs. before.

I'm thinking the ECM is being "fooled" somehow; only this time it the MP gauge that is not reading right?

Does anyone know how I can easily verify what my actual MP is? ... And if so, where do I check it?
you wont see more than 26psi of boost out of that wheel in your turbo. at 25-26 it hits the surge line and air starts backflowing creating a surge. the wheel can not overcome the pressure forces. If your turbo sits and runs in a surge condition during a hard pull and for a long continuous amount of time over and over it will soon have failed bearings.
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Old 07-07-2020, 07:34 PM   #16
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Mark, your ISC-350 engine and mine use the same Holset HX40 turbo. And best I can tell from the Cummins site, that turbo was used on some, if not all, the larger ISL engines as well. If there is any difference in the details of the compressor section (or anything else on the turbo) it has been my experience that Cummins will issue a different internal part number for it. That is standard procedure for all ISO-registered companies, even my small 30-man machine shop. We must document every change in part specs or procedures for every part we machine.

In my PERSONAL HANDS-ON experience, that particular turbo is easily capable of 30-32 PSI. My boost was the same as yours when mine was in the completely stock condition—about 23-23 PSI. TOTALLY disabling the wastegate raised my boost to 30 PSI, with a large reduction in EGT across the entire load/RPM range. (Note: this was always one of the key elements in the Banks Engineering performance kits—raising boost pressure. Their website vaguely suggests it is their way of reducing EGT to safe levels.) Adding the Ag Solutions 12100 raised boost about 2 more PSI to 32 max. The additional 2 PSI is to be expected when burning extra fuel. At the 30+ PSI point, I am considering enabling the turbo wastegate actuator again. I have no PERSONAL experience with establishing the 30 PSI limit, it is just the max I currently choose to subject my CAC and attendant elastomeric hoses to.

I cannot say with certainty FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that the turbo spun faster after disabling the wastegate, because I have no way of measuring its RPM. But from my experience as a mechanical engineer, I know of no other way it can build higher boost than before. In case there are those that do not understand how the wastegate operates, it does not exhaust any of the compressed air…it only bypasses the EXHAUST gas around the turbo’s “hot” side, limiting how fast it can spin. Limiting the turbo’s max RPM is how the wastegate limits max boost.

And once and for all, increasing boost on an engine that already has enough excess air to burn the fuel supplied without smoking, DOES NOT INCREASE POWER. You only increase performance by burning extra fuel efficiently.

Mark, returning to your question of whether your boost gage is inaccurate, I cannot definitively say, but if your EGT’s are REDUCED what else have you changed that would lower EGT? Since you do not have a baseline reading of EGT BEFORE the installation of the Ag Solutions 12100 there is not much that can conclusively be said about any reduction of EGT. To check the accuracy of your gage you can always temporarily add a tee to the present location of your pressure sensor and run a long length of tubing to a mechanical gage near your driving position.

Unfortunately, unless you have a specific reason to doubt the gage’s accuracy, I would bet money that it is correct. And if you have noticed a large improvement in your coach’s acceleration due to the Ag Solutions 12100 with the existing boost, are not exhausting smoke, and have “reasonable” EGT’s, I don’t think I would pursue raising the boost any higher. Raising the boost might interest you from a personal curiosity or technical viewpoint, but if you are truly at 420HP with safe EGT’s, I doubt there is anything you have to gain.

There is one thing I will add parenthetically. One can PROBABLY (no personal experience) increase the boost of a turbo at any given RPM by changing the configuration of the compressor impeller. I have a Garrett 1832255C91 turbo removed from a late-model diesel truck. It has a compressor impeller that is radically different from the picture of yours that you sent me and more similar to the pix of that high-performance CRA (center rotating assembly) from Turbo Labs that you also sent me. Perhaps the design of compressor impellers has progressed a great deal in the last fifteen years. CNC machining them from billets would have been extremely expensive 20 years ago, but we are doing similar 4-axis jobs in my shop now.
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Old 07-07-2020, 08:42 PM   #17
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Country, you have considerable experience with Diesel engines so my question is without doing anything to boost HP and leaving my 525 Cat stock would there be a great advantage to putting a egt gauge on mine. My experience with them as well as pyrometers on individual cylinders has always been on stationary power plants. Great tools for troubleshooting and identifying some issues but never used them in a mobile application. Worth the cost and effort or will my Allison and Cat ECM do a better job then I would
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Old 07-07-2020, 10:32 PM   #18
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I am so glad we have a number of eyes on this subject. And I will do my best to show before Vs. after chart numbers in the next 7 days that will give us a glimps of what matters most:

* Are my EGT numbers lower now that I have plugged/choked-off the air needed for the actuator to work?

I.e., now that I believe my waste gate will remain closed during all driving conditions... A) Will I be able to chart lower EGT numbers for the same Performance Chart I created before I modified my turbo air line? ...And B) Did I gain any HP?

Note: I agree with VanWill in theory that you cannot develop more HP by simply adding more air, but I reserve the right to comment on this further after I put my RV back on the Ag-Diesel dyno some day.

For now I will just say: It feels like I may have go more HP after I plugged the turbo air line, because... maybe... I have some un-burned fuel energy through the power curve I previously say as "black smoke" out my tail pipe when I stepped-on-it!

I also think my RV is climbing grades at lower RPM, but I will not be able to confirm this until next week when I build a new EGT Performance Chart.

The best way to know for sure if to put my RV on the Ag-Diesel dyno, but this summer my travels will take me to Montana and not Indiana so there is no telling when I will visiting Ag-Diesel again.

The goal of this project is to bring those EGT numbers down!


FOR COMPARISON SAKE

* My MP gauge is electric and VanWill's MP gauge is vacuum driven. So his is accurate an mine may not be. (TBD)

Can anyone tell me where my electric Freightline MP gauge is getting it's information; and why would it be possibly be reading low just because I plugged my turbo air line? ...Either that or it's not reading low and WildCard comments about "surge" is a limiting factor? (TBD)

* My stock MP would typically be 23.5 PSI above 3,000 feet altitude and would reach 24 PSI at sea level. So TR4's PSI yields similar results.

TR4: Did you EGT go down after you modifications to limit the travel of your turbo actuator arm?

Wild Card introduced the concept of "turbo surge" as being a limiting factor and I think that calls for more discussion.

VanWill
showed a Turbo Labs "BatMoWheel" Aluminum Billet Compressor Wheel that is more efficient than my very basic, ceramic compressor wheel, but he did not confirm if his RV turbo compressor wheel is similar to mine or not?

The reason I mention this is because some of us are saying that I should not expect more than 26" from my stock turbo compressor wheel, while VanWill has documented that he went from 23" all the way to 32" of boost by just disabling his actuator... and he says we have the same turbo?

There has to be a clearer reason why VanWill can get 32" of boost and I can not?

However, since everything comes down to Weight vs. HP/Torque..... we can create our own table of EGT performance data (based on like coach weight/HP/torque) and use that as a bench mark. Just remember, my ISC-350 is now an ISC-420 after I added the Ag-Diesel Power Moduwl #12100.

So again, by next week I will be able to submit an updated chart that will prove my EGTs are lower across the board after disabled my waste gate. (TBD)

WildCard: You said, If your turbo sits and runs in a surge condition during a hard pull and for a long continuous amount of time over and over it will soon have failed bearings." ...Are you making this assumption on the fact that if you make your turbo work harder then your bearing will suffer the pounding?

If so, then we are not talking about turbo RPM being a factor, but "surge" as in uneven load. So I have a question: Is this why street races add a "bleed-off" valve to alleviate turbo back pressures... known to blow head gaskets?

Final comment: At first glance, I think my EGT are lower in all RPM ranges except during a "hard pull" up a steep grade. (TBD) And to prove this I will build my chart and share it with everyone next week. What I don't understand is why I think my EGTs are lower throughout the acceleration curve?

Thank you for contributing!
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:08 AM   #19
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no, its not from it working harder. When the turbo surges it flutters. This load and unload on bearings and wheel will eventually destroy it.

now, you should be able to see the surge in boost gauge, a bit of a flutter and it should be fairly audible...however rear engine diesel with lots of insulation muffling noise wipes that out.

if you hit 26pisg of boost and it stays solid, no surge
if you hit 28 drops to 24 back to 28 on and on...thats compressor surge.
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:56 PM   #20
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Update: No Change In EGT Climbing Hills... But I am seeing Lower EGTs "On The Flats"

First the good news: My manifold pressure gauge does not bounce around, however, I don't know it if would since it's an electrical MP gauge and if there is any turbo surge going on... I don't feel it or hear it or see it on my electric MP gauge. (Maybe a air line type MP gauge would bounce?) Or there is no surge.

I also DO see lower EGT temperatures in the low power ranges and on flat roads during cruise. However, the moment I start climbing a hill the EGT Performance Chart I created before disabling the waste gate yield the same EGT Performance numbers after I disabled the waste gate. So no change when it comes to higher load configurations. ...But why is this the case?

VanWill's turbo is a Holset-40W and when he disabled his actuator he got 30-32PSI on his air type MP gauge? So why is there such a discrepancy?

Personally, I think there is not much more that needs to be said, unless and/or until VanWill builds a similiar EGT Performance Chart for comparisions.

Moving On

WildCard: You are correct. I cannot get more than 26 psi of boost... even after I plugged (disabled) the air line to the turbo actuator so my waste gate will remain closed during all driving conditions. Can you elaborate on how and why you know this would be the outcome I would see?

Or is is possible my waste gate has been frozen shut for year?

I think not, because my stock MP boost was 24PSI. And then I added the Ag-Diesel Power Module and my boost would max-out at 25PSI. And then I plugged the turbo air line to the actuator and I can get 26PSI. ...And in ever case I think this is because my turbine side was/is spinning faster, and that means my compressor wheel is also spinning faster. So why am I not seeing at least 30 PSI of boost?

SPECULATIONS

I think my compressor wheel is spinning faster... which means more air is entering the combustion chamber than before throughout the lower power ranges.

And that explains why my EGT Performance numbers are lower "on the flats," but not lower when I push the engine RPM into the higher power ranges. So if I am correct about this; why is is this the case?

If you look at those 5 ceramic "wings" on my compressor wheel, you will see their is not much profile (bite) to them; so I think it's likely the upper limit of this style compressor wheels is 26PSI at sea level. (Note: At 4,000 feet I can only get 25PSI.)

I also think it's possible the reason why there are so many different Turbo part numbers (for the same Holset-40W Turbo) is because there are a lot of different turbine wheel and compressor wheel configurations out there.

In closing, a turbo is a very basic piece of equipment. In fact, overhauling an alternator would require more technical experience. Therefore, if my turbine wheel is capable of driving the compressor wheel faster, would be no need to change it when it comes time to overhaul it. However, I would change out my compressor wheel in favor of an aluminum billet type of wheel commonly called a "Bat-Mo-Wheel" like the one previously posted by VanWill.

That's it folks! I see no reason to remove the plug in that turbo air line since I am seeing lower EGT numbers in the lower power range. I just did not expect this as I was so focused on lowering EGT in the higher power range.

That being the case, I highly recommend you install a DIGITAL type EGT gauge so you can learn how to baby your engine.

Note: Before I installed an EGT gauge I thought I knew how to baby my engine, but this turned out to be a mistake on my part. Specifically, the only reason I know know how to baby my engine and get maximum performance out of my engine is because I installed an EGT gauge. And now I highly recommend you do too!
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Old 07-09-2020, 06:58 AM   #21
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Have your pressure tested your CAC and associated piping and checked for leaks?

They make plug kits or you can go to Home Depot etc and possibly build the plugs you need.
Disconect from turbo and Intake Pressurize the assembly and see if you get a pressure drop.

You could have a small leak somewhere between point A and B
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Old 07-09-2020, 07:20 AM   #22
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You could also have carbon built up on the gate internals of the turbo causing it to not fully seat
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Old 07-09-2020, 12:28 PM   #23
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I have not tested my CAC becuase my stock MP was 23.5-24PSI (as it should be) and my engine putout 350HP on the dyno. So I figured everything was running right. I still do.

As for carbon buildup... I like that you are helping me consider all options, but short of runnning Seafoam through the engine (by priming a fuel filter) I don't think that will result in 5+ PSI.

Wildcard: How would you clean the carbon out of the turbine side of the turbo?

I'm still of the opinion:

A) My turbine is spinning faster, but...

B) My pitted, ceramic compressor wheel just can't bite enough air to reach more than 26PSI.


VanWill: I don't suppose you have a picture of your compressor wheel?

Note: I did check for turbo shaft end-play in both radial and axial directions (by hand) and all is as it should be. They make a gauge for this, but since my compressor wheel spins freely and does not touch the sides of the turbo housing, I will call it "good."

...And I'm still not sure if my electric MP gauge is controlled by the ECM or where it gets it's sending unit information?

...Or if my MP reading is really a "load meter" measurement and the ECM displays Manifold Pressure in PSI on my dash?
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Old 07-09-2020, 04:23 PM   #24
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Digital vs Analog EGT Gages

Ever tried to use a digital VOM to troubleshoot a varying voltage? It is very difficult for the human eye/brain to discern even whether the reading is increasing or decreasing, since the numbers change so quickly. For certain steady-state measurements the digital meter is great, but if you are trying to watch a "trend", analog gages are much better.

Autometer (and probably others) offers an interface module that you mount relatively close to the thermocouple (away from intense heat, of course) that amplifies the K-type millivolt signal to a much stronger signal that can be transmitted over regular primary wire long distances. Typically, EGT gages require expensive, unwieldy, jacketed thermocouple cable to extend the relatively short wires attached to the thermocouple probe itself. That made my second EGT gage much simpler to install.
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Old 07-09-2020, 04:30 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kenwyatt View Post
Country, you have considerable experience with Diesel engines so my question is without doing anything to boost HP and leaving my 525 Cat stock would there be a great advantage to putting a egt gauge on mine. My experience with them as well as pyrometers on individual cylinders has always been on stationary power plants. Great tools for troubleshooting and identifying some issues but never used them in a mobile application. Worth the cost and effort or will my Allison and Cat ECM do a better job then I would
There is no need for an EGT gauge - except that it is another tool to help you monitor engine operation. You note the typical/normal exhaust temperatures as you drive (for each condition like flat interstate roads and under high load such as going up mountains) and if it starts to go really high under the same condition you know something is going on and need to investigate.

But do you "need" this? No you don't. Just like you don't need an oil pressure gauge when an idiot light will get the job done.

Two things that can cause high EGT are 1) over fueling (i.e. bad injector(s)), and 2) low air volume into engine (i.e. clogged air filter and/or restriction).
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Old 07-09-2020, 04:31 PM   #26
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Differences in Holset 40 turbos?

Mark, please go on Quickserve with your engine serial number and get the Cummins part number for your turbo assembly. I'll do the same. I'm wondering if your turbo is materially different than mine.

No, although I've had my hose removed from the compressor side of the turbo, I don't remember if my impeller looked different from yours.

I have not noticed any fluctuation or flutter in the PSI reported by my boost gage, either completely stock, or with actuator disabled, or after adding the Ag Solutions 12100.
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Old 07-09-2020, 07:41 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
I have not tested my CAC becuase my stock MP was 23.5-24PSI (as it should be) and my engine putout 350HP on the dyno. So I figured everything was running right. I still do.

As for carbon buildup... I like that you are helping me consider all options, but short of runnning Seafoam through the engine (by priming a fuel filter) I don't think that will result in 5+ PSI.

Wildcard: How would you clean the carbon out of the turbine side of the turbo?

I'm still of the opinion:

A) My turbine is spinning faster, but...

B) My pitted, ceramic compressor wheel just can't bite enough air to reach more than 26PSI.


VanWill: I don't suppose you have a picture of your compressor wheel?

Note: I did check for turbo shaft end-play in both radial and axial directions (by hand) and all is as it should be. They make a gauge for this, but since my compressor wheel spins freely and does not touch the sides of the turbo housing, I will call it "good."

...And I'm still not sure if my electric MP gauge is controlled by the ECM or where it gets it's sending unit information?

...Or if my MP reading is really a "load meter" measurement and the ECM displays Manifold Pressure in PSI on my dash?
I was referring to carbon on the wastegate valve not allowing it to seat. Wouldnt take much leakage to hurt boost pressure.
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Old 07-14-2020, 12:36 AM   #28
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Vanwill: I can read my GlowShit digital EGT/Pyrometer very easily and I like it!

It counts up and down very fast with very little, acceptable lag. Also, the numbers are changing 90% of the time because the road is always changing so I really would not want to take my eyes off the road to accurately read an analog EGT. So for my tastes, I am very glad I did NOT install an analog gauge. ...And the digital EGT goes very nice with my digital Fuel Pressure Gauge.

As for accuracy, all I can say is that the EGT reads consistent with the grade and power curve I documented. So yes, I trust the GlowShit digital EGT gauge I picked up on Amazon for $125 and I would recommend it. It also reads up to 2200F so I find that interesting. Maybe this is to ensure accuracy below 1500F?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also recommend you buy a new 1/8" NPT Die and drill too:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Pyrometer Installation Tips:

* Use a center punch and a small sledge hammer to mark the spot where you want to drill in to your exhaust manifold on one side of the exhaust tube just before the turbo.

* Stop your drilling just before you break through the exhaust manifold so no metal can enter the exhaust manifold. Vacuum the hole if that make you feel better. ...Then start your engine. ...Then finish drilling and any metal shavings will be swept out the exhaust.

* With the engine turned "off"...use a ratchet to tap the threads... BUT DO NOT TAP TO DEEP! Just tap enough for the tapered threads to cut through and stop. Vacuum again if you like.

* Install your probe and run 42' of 16-gauge stranded wire to the cockpit. I also recommend you remove the wire ends that come with the Pyrometer and solider the wires as necessary.

* When you have everything wired up... Start your engine. You should see your 200F display increase to 300F to 350F.

Note: I like these gauges down low so the lights can't be seen unless you purposefully look at them. And at night the digital readout is easy to make out. These gauges are a great addition and very well priced!

Vanwill: My 2003-ISC-350-CAPS Cummins engine serial number is 46321341. However, you will not find any information that will help you differentiate your turbo cartridge (which consists of the turbine assembly and compressor wheel) from my turbo cartridge. I know, because I attempted to do with with several other IRV2 owners and I ran into a brick wall. However, if you come up with some good information to share... that would be great!

CountryB: I agree with you. You don't need an EGT or Fuel Pressure Gauge for that matter. And I never said you do need them. I said if you have an EGT it will change the way you drive!

And from my experiences with an EGT, I found that if you always keep your RPMs over 1800 when climbing 2-3% grades; and over 2000 RPM when climbing 4% and higher grades, your EGTs will remain mostly in safe territory. But I will also tell you there are lots of times your mind is on other things; and that cruise control is the real EGT killer, because the cruise control will add fuel to climb that grade and most people will not know they are leaving your safe-space if you do not have an EGT.

The other truth is that you can probably "beat the **** out of your engine" and it will keep running for 100K-150K... even 200K miles before you see any real engine damage; and how many of us will be driving our RV that long?

For me, I just like to treat my engine nice and now I'm a convert: I.e., I use to think I can just take my foot off the pedal, but now that I have an EGT, I can really see the value it offers... if you care about selling your RV to another person who will be glad you drove your RV with care!
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