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Old 06-02-2020, 12:28 PM   #1
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Cat C9 - warm starting problems

All,

2004 Caterpillar C9 – 400bhp – (9DG02935)

Thanks to those that have made suggestions on this subject thus far

A final "throw of the dice"

Have been experiencing starting problems – ONLY when warm – it is apparently 'temperature related' because if I let the engine 'cool' for 20 minutes, it will start again straight away – no belch of white smoke suggesting un-burnt diesel in the cylinders, therefore suggesting the injectors are not firing

Linking the leisure batteries to assist the starter does not cause the engine to start

Other than this warm start issue, the engine starts first time when cold and runs / pulls fine

Have so far tried the following in trouble-shooting:

disconnect IAP sensor – still no warm start

new coolant and air intake sensors - appeared to correct things for a short time – since changed again, no warm start

fuel pressure is good (80 psi exiting the filter)

chassis batteries changed – they were 7 years old and well down on CCA when tested

I have no fuel pressure sensor

replaced fuel regulator – showing signs of wear (when tested barely maintained 10 psi pressure)

changed speed sensors – because I was in the engine bay

changed the IAP sensor – because I was in the engine bay

the resistance at the IAP control valve on the HEUI pump is 8 ohms

the wiring from the ECM to the IAP control valve (in the HEUI pump) shows similar resistance

all pins at the ECM are good

I have the IFS (post HEUI pump filtration) system fitted

Several hours spent connected to Cat ET could not identify the reason for the pump's failure to make the required 'start' pressure SOMETIMES when warm

Not yet inspected the internals of the HEUI pump – oil analysis remains consistent with previous years, no metallic particle increase

I have now run out of ideas

I am aware that “Multiple improvements” were made to the HEUI pumps in 2007, item 4 of which was attention to the crimp of the IAP control valve, which sits in the oil reservoir within the HEUI pump, because of intermittent failure due to heat and vibration

This where I am now looking

Before I place my order for a new (improved ??) HEUI pump – there is a 3 week lead time for it to cross the Atlantic !!

Would anybody, especially those who might have experienced / solved similar warm start issues, like to suggest anything else that I might have overlooked / could check before “spending my hard earned dime” ??

Fingers crossed I might have missed something obvious

Safe travels, if you are able, in these difficult times

Ian S.
Exeter UK
CC 2005 Allure 430
Cat C9
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Old 06-02-2020, 09:11 PM   #2
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I would say it's the HUIE pump. When the oil is hot it is thinner and as it cools it gets thicker. I think the Cat injectors need 750psi oil pressure inside the injector to start, I may be wrong.

I know an 06 Ford PSD needs 500psi in the injectors for it to start. There problems are with the stand pipes, dummy plugs and HUIE pump.
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Old 06-03-2020, 12:17 AM   #3
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Cat C9 - warm starting issues

To help others that might be contemplating responding

Engine mileage - 31,600 (just over 1,000 hours)

Thanks to 2 Stroker for the reminder - another trouble shoot undertaken but forgotten

at suggestion of Finnings oil analysis lab - oil changed to a slightly (15%) 'thicker when warm' 15W/40 - unfortunately still no warm start

'Live' Cat ET data when failing to warm start shows -
pump desired pressure of 870 psi - pump making only about 400 psi
IAP sensor disconnected - pump desired pressure is 1100 psi - no start - again pump making only about 400 psi
wait a short period - circa 20 minutes - good pressure made / starts straight away
when engine running, there is negligible difference between 'desired' and 'actual' pump pressures when tested via Cat ET

It is almost as if 400 psi is the maximum mechanical pressure - without input from the ECM - I don't know enough about the pumps and have been unable to confirm this figure / rationale ??

All suggestions / ideas greatly appreciated about why 'she' does not like starting when warm
(truck drivers get very impatient and have some VERY colourful language whilst I sit at the pump waiting for the engine to cool )

With best wishes from the UK

Ian S.
Exeter UK
CC 2005 Allure 430
Cat C9
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Old 06-03-2020, 10:34 AM   #4
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Ian S
AT 400psi looks like to me it's the pump.
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Old 06-03-2020, 06:36 PM   #5
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Let us know what you find is causing your problem. Safe Travels
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Old 06-03-2020, 11:29 PM   #6
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Cat C9 - warm starting issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat View Post
Let us know what you find is causing your problem. Safe Travels
Will certainly update thread as things progress - (nothing worse than threads seeking help that are not closed )

Going to travel and 'road test' for a few weeks now Covid lockdown over here slowly lifting - I will just be careful where / when I stop for fuel

Safe travels
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Old 06-04-2020, 07:39 AM   #7
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How often do you change your oil?
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:29 AM   #8
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Cat C9 - warm starting issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Rooster View Post
How often do you change your oil?
Engine oil pan oil submitted for analysis at least annually - since warm start issue first manifested itself - testing about every 6 months

IFS filter bowl oil submitted for analysis and comparison occasionally

Engine oil changed no greater than 7,500 miles / 3 years

Engine oil filter changed mid-term

Every engine oil analysis since 2010 (purchase) has given Finnings analyst "no cause for concern"
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanSmith-UK View Post
Engine oil pan oil submitted for analysis at least annually - since warm start issue first manifested itself - testing about every 6 months

IFS filter bowl oil submitted for analysis and comparison occasionally

Engine oil changed no greater than 7,500 miles / 3 years

Engine oil filter changed mid-term

Every engine oil analysis since 2010 (purchase) has given Finnings analyst "no cause for concern"


So your changing oil every 3 years, what oil and weight are you using?
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:02 AM   #10
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Cat C9 - warm starting issues

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So your changing oil every 3 years, what oil and weight are you using?
2010 (purchase) until 2019 - Cat DEO 15W/40 - circa 12.2 cSt @ 100 degrees C

During investigations into the warm starting issue - at the suggestion of / in consultation with Finnings Fluids Analysis Laboratory - a thicker when warm oil was muted (on the basis of "nothing to lose")

Identified and swapped to Fuchs Titan Cargo 10W/40

Titan Cargo 10W/40 provides a slightly higher (+ 10%) thicker when warm oil (13.3 cSt @ 100 degrees C) - as well as providing a slightly 'thinner' oil to aid cool starting

Higher 'hot' viscosity confirmed with 'virgin' and 'in use' engine oil by analysis (have not relied on published specifications !!)
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:11 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanSmith-UK View Post
2010 (purchase) until 2019 - Cat DEO 15W/40 - circa 12.2 cSt @ 100 degrees C

During investigations into the warm starting issue - at the suggestion of / in consultation with Finnings Fluids Analysis Laboratory - a thicker when warm oil was muted (on the basis of "nothing to lose")

Identified and swapped to Fuchs Titan Cargo 10W/40

Titan Cargo 10W/40 provides a slightly higher (+ 10%) thicker when warm oil (13.3 cSt @ 100 degrees C) - as well as providing a slightly 'thinner' oil to aid cool starting

Higher 'hot' viscosity confirmed with 'virgin' and 'in use' engine oil by analysis (have not relied on published specifications !!)


You would think it’s the huei pump since engine want start without oil pressure. My C-9 is now 13 years old and change oil and filter every 12 months no matter how few of miles. I sent oil off for the first time 2 months ago. Report said I’m doing a excellent job maintaining engine. Everything I’ve read huei pumps need clean oil or your going to have trouble.
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Old 06-06-2020, 04:33 PM   #12
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Hi Ian,
Sorry been out of town for an extended trip and didn't see your post. Your engine should be at 850 psi HEUI pressure during starting. Anything less will make "hot" oil starting difficult. I suggest installing a "snubber" on your gauge due to the pulsation of the axial pump design. Without it the gauge bounces around and difficult to get an accurate reading. You noted a short amount of time where it starts okay. This is due to the oil in the POST HEUI filter able to cool faster than if you only had the original tubing from the HEUI to the head. The post filter is acting like a heat sink. Verify your pressure when cranking hot.
Hope you are well,
George
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Old 06-12-2020, 04:16 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery39s View Post
Hi Ian,
Sorry been out of town for an extended trip and didn't see your post. Your engine should be at 850 psi HEUI pressure during starting. Anything less will make "hot" oil starting difficult. I suggest installing a "snubber" on your gauge due to the pulsation of the axial pump design................................ Verify your pressure when cranking hot.
Hope you are well,
George


Update on diagnosis -

Earlier today, at George's suggestion was able to install high pressure gauge at the exit from my IFS
(Installation was a piece of cake thanks to the presence of the IFS filter - which is much more accessible than the HEUI pump outlets)

Cold start - climbed up through 850, started quickly, to idle at around 1900 psi (stable)

Slightly warm start - climbed up through 850, started quickly, to idle at around 1900 (stable)

As warmed up - idle pressure climbed to 2200 - ?? cold protection turning off ?? - appreciate any thoughts

Fast idle to coolant temp (from ECM) of 188°F / 190 / 192 - normal operating temps - pressure circa 2150 slight fluctuation

Turned off and "crossed fingers"

No start - pump cranking pressure - 200 psi
(Note - CAT ET, when connected, showed a hot cranking pressure of 400 psi !! - perhaps the lowest the software will determine ??)

Checked signal from ECM to IAP CV in pump - good, bright, positive, immediate light on test lamp

Tried again - No start - cranking pressure - 200 psi

?? my conclusion from postings / suggestions above - pump failed ??

Will inspect pump for metal bits on solenoid upon removal / replacement

Appreciate any further thoughts before I order my new pump

In hindsight (wonderful thing !!) - physically check pump outlet pressures at an early stage of investigation / diagnosis.
That said, I have lots of new sensors , lots of spare used sensors and I have learned an incredible amount about the workings of my engine

Will update further / close thread when new pump fitted / warm starts return (hopefully)

Safe travels

Ian S.
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Old 06-12-2020, 09:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanSmith-UK View Post

Update on diagnosis -

Earlier today, at George's suggestion was able to install high pressure gauge at the exit from my IFS
(Installation was a piece of cake thanks to the presence of the IFS filter - which is much more accessible than the HEUI pump outlets)

Cold start - climbed up through 850, started quickly, to idle at around 1900 psi (stable)

Slightly warm start - climbed up through 850, started quickly, to idle at around 1900 (stable)

As warmed up - idle pressure climbed to 2200 - ?? cold protection turning off ?? - appreciate any thoughts

Fast idle to coolant temp (from ECM) of 188°F / 190 / 192 - normal operating temps - pressure circa 2150 slight fluctuation

Turned off and "crossed fingers"

No start - pump cranking pressure - 200 psi
(Note - CAT ET, when connected, showed a hot cranking pressure of 400 psi !! - perhaps the lowest the software will determine ??)

Checked signal from ECM to IAP CV in pump - good, bright, positive, immediate light on test lamp

Tried again - No start - cranking pressure - 200 psi

?? my conclusion from postings / suggestions above - pump failed ??

Will inspect pump for metal bits on solenoid upon removal / replacement

Appreciate any further thoughts before I order my new pump

In hindsight (wonderful thing !!) - physically check pump outlet pressures at an early stage of investigation / diagnosis.
That said, I have lots of new sensors , lots of spare used sensors and I have learned an incredible amount about the workings of my engine

Will update further / close thread when new pump fitted / warm starts return (hopefully)

Safe travels

Ian S.
The percentage of the signal would be good to know. If a pump is good and there is no leakage the pwm signal would be minimal. But if the heui pump or heui injector was leaking actuation pressure, the pwm signal increases. The ecm is going to be monitoring the actuation pressure if it see that pressure low it will increase the pwm signal to reach the actuation map pressure. Especially when at cranking speed and pressure is only 200psi if you have 100%-140% current then you have a bad pump or injectors leaking heui oil.
Suggestion I would certainly check the pump for metal before it is removed. If you check and there is no metal and take look at the injectors leaking from the seals. It was not unusual for the injector seals to go bad. If thats the case it is a simple remove and reseal and reinstall. Good luck!!!
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