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Old 09-05-2008, 05:47 PM   #15
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by edgray:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's hard enough to find a gas station we can fit in, propane is worse and harder to find, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really ? Seems like every time I pull into a Flying J RV island for Gas there is someone parked there waiting to fill their LPG bottles. ED </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I rest my case, there is someone parked there waiting to fill their LPG , or there's someone blocking the fill area, maybe at the restaurant, or there's no Flyn J, or they can't find the attendent. Or it may cost $5 a gal.
OK, maybe propane is easier to get where you are but there's only one place in my town that sells it (rental place, expensive and bankers hours), Flyn J 35 miles away and always a big ordeal to get propane.
Get it if you want, but I bet you'll regret it. Same reason there are few propane generators

oh yea, the new thing with propane is trade your empty for a full bottle. Almost all stores do that for about $25 for 20 lbs
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Old 09-06-2008, 04:18 AM   #16
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CNG may be in the future for RV's cars and trucks. But, until the infrastructure is in place for "everyday" refueling I don't think you will see much movement in the RV industry.

Another problem is the weight and size of the storage container. Here is a photo of 100 pounder I use during the winter.



OBTW - It's $75 to refill it no matter what is left in it. Also, current refill procedures are done by weight and "technically" you have to certified to refill them.
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Old 09-06-2008, 05:09 AM   #17
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Those who have visited New Zealand may be aware that, due to an abundance of natural gas and a shortage of crude oil, most cars in New Zealand have run on CNG or LPG for decades. The infrastructure (service stations, etc.) support both options. So, it can be done.

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Old 09-06-2008, 05:27 AM   #18
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by max49:
I rest my case, there is someone parked there waiting to fill their LPG , or there's someone blocking the fill area, maybe at the restaurant, or there's no Flyn J, or they can't find the attendant. Or it may cost $5 a gal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Max, It's OK - Take a deep breath and try to relax. We're talking about the technology and not so much the infrastructure which will need to be developed if compressed gasses become an option in the future.

You would have been a riot around Wilbur & Orville Wright!
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Old 09-06-2008, 05:54 AM   #19
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oemtech:
CNG may be in the future for RV's cars and trucks. But, until the infrastructure is in place for "everyday" refueling I don't think you will see much movement in the RV industry.

Another problem is the weight and size of the storage container. Here is a photo of 100 pounder I use during the winter.

OBTW - It's $75 to refill it no matter what is left in it. Also, current refill procedures are done by weight and "technically" you have to certified to refill them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very inexpensive. Swap out the 70 gallon gasoline tank for the 100 gallon CNG or LPG tank. Fill by the gallon just like Fly J.

Think "out of the bottle". As you quote: "Vision - The ability to see what others don't and act on it."
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Old 09-06-2008, 06:20 AM   #20
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Hi I run my Damon Daybreak 8.1 Vortec on LPG in the UK, runs as well or even better on lpg, oil keeps much cleaner, we have two tanks holding 300 litres of LPG, I have two vaporizers installed to feed the lpg to the injectors, one vaporizer for each bank of cylinders, if one fails it will run on one, you have a second set of injectors installed for the LPG, the vaporizers are water heated from the main radiator as the LPG is to cold straight out of the tanks.

The engine starts on petrol and switches seamlessly when warm about 5 minutes, if you run out of LPG it switches back to petrol by its self, the whole system is controlled by a separate computer.

The down side is the installation costs, I paid £2400 last year for the installation, you can do it yourself if you are capable.

It does make the running costs much cheaper once installed, it also makes the resale easier in the UK as our petrol is very expensive.

Most of the kits are either Dutch or Italian.

We are obtaining around 20 MPG when you take into consideration the difference in the cost between petrol and lpg

Regards

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Old 09-06-2008, 07:30 AM   #21
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I believe that the technology is sound... it's just the application costs and availably that needs to be address.
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Old 09-06-2008, 07:49 AM   #22
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Delbert21:
Hi I run my Damon Daybreak 8.1 Vortec on LPG in the UK, runs as well or even better on lpg, oil keeps much cleaner, we have two tanks holding 300 litres of LPG, I have two vaporizers installed to feed the lpg to the injectors, one vaporizer for each bank of cylinders, if one fails it will run on one, you have a second set of injectors installed for the LPG, the vaporizers are water heated from the main radiator as the LPG is to cold straight out of the tanks.

The engine starts on petrol and switches seamlessly when warm about 5 minutes, if you run out of LPG it switches back to petrol by its self, the whole system is controlled by a separate computer.

The down side is the installation costs, I paid £2400 last year for the installation, you can do it yourself if you are capable.

It does make the running costs much cheaper once installed, it also makes the resale easier in the UK as our petrol is very expensive.

Most of the kits are either Dutch or Italian.

We are obtaining around 20 MPG when you take into consideration the difference in the cost between petrol and lpg

Regards

Derek </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great info...thanks. I know about your petrol costs..I visited Scotland for 10 days this past May. Beautiful country! Wonderful people.
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Old 09-06-2008, 08:34 AM   #23
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Those of us who have owned RV's for many years clearly recall the gasoline/propane systems which appeared on RV's during the first gas crunch. There were both OEM systems and aftermarket systems. What everyone experenced was that they couldn't afford to run using propane. The fuel mileage was much worse, the engines developed less power and way to many of these were destroyed by fires.

I expect the technology is better today and hopefully safer but I'm not sure the economics are different. It will cost you more to run on propane plus you will hate trying to find fill sites when needed. As for naturnal gas, the fill sites basically do not exist.

For this to work well the engine should be set up to take advantage of the higher octan of propane i.e. higher compression. This would help the efficiency problem.
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Old 09-06-2008, 09:06 AM   #24
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here are the relative air/fuel ratio's needed to operate on the different fuels available:
gasoline: 14.7/1
gas 10% Eth: 14.1/1
E85: 9.9/1
Ethonol: 9.0/1
Diesel: 14.6/1
Propane: 15.5/1
Methonol: 6.4/1
CNG: 17.2/1
The problem with propane is that it is a petroleum product and likely wouldn't be a viable replacement for gasoline. CNG probably makes the most since, but there isn't a reliable network of filling stations. Another thing to consider is BTU content of each of the fuels which is where your power comes from.
Here is a table of BTU's per gallon:
CNG-45,000
Propane-91,600
Gasoline-125,000
Ethonol-76,000
#2 Diesel-139,000
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Old 09-06-2008, 09:27 AM   #25
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Joe

Cant agree with you regarding fuel efficiency on lpg we only see a slight difference in MPG, the difference is more than absorbed in the cost of the lpg, I currently pay 56.9 pence for a litre of lpg against over £1.16 pence for petrol, the power output is slightly better on lpg the revs are lower and the engine exhaust is much cleaner, lpg is generally easy to find in the UK, when we visit Belgium, Holland and France all garages on the main motorways sell lpg, as we can carry 300 litres we can travel for some distance before filling up. The computer that controls the lpg monitors the engine and constantly adjusts the amount of lpg being injected into the engine, today's modern systems are very efficient and inherently very safe even over petrol.

We have many cars in UK and the rest of Europe that run on lpg, it is not only the gas guzzlers that are being converted, you can now order a new car from a main dealer with factory fitted lpg.
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Old 09-06-2008, 09:40 AM   #26
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I believe you that in Europe it may make sense, as the tax on gasoline is so high. I doubt that works in the USA but I'm certainly interested in any alternative which is less expensive.
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Old 09-06-2008, 09:48 AM   #27
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pubtym:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Delbert21:
Hi I run my Damon Daybreak 8.1 Vortec on LPG in the UK, runs as well or even better on lpg, oil keeps much cleaner, we have two tanks holding 300 litres of LPG, I have two vaporizers installed to feed the lpg to the injectors, one vaporizer for each bank of cylinders, if one fails it will run on one, you have a second set of injectors installed for the LPG, the vaporizers are water heated from the main radiator as the LPG is to cold straight out of the tanks.

The engine starts on petrol and switches seamlessly when warm about 5 minutes, if you run out of LPG it switches back to petrol by its self, the whole system is controlled by a separate computer.

The down side is the installation costs, I paid £2400 last year for the installation, you can do it yourself if you are capable.

It does make the running costs much cheaper once installed, it also makes the resale easier in the UK as our petrol is very expensive.

Most of the kits are either Dutch or Italian.

We are obtaining around 20 MPG when you take into consideration the difference in the cost between petrol and lpg

Regards

Derek </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great info...thanks. I know about your petrol costs..I visited Scotland for 10 days this past May. Beautiful country! Wonderful people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pubtym

Glad that you enjoyed Scotland as I was born in Scotland and lived in Edinburgh,I now live down south in Kent about 40 miles from London, as you say beautiful countryside, petrol is slowly coming down in price but not as quick as we would like. We have been to the US a number of times, LA, Vegas, Florida, San Diego, and Palm Springs, great country.
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Old 09-06-2008, 05:37 PM   #28
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Delbert21:
I now live down south in Kent about 40 miles from London... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>My father told me he spent some time in Kent when he was in the RCAF during the war.
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