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Old 02-21-2021, 05:09 PM   #15
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I also have a roadmaster steering stabilizer as well as anti sway bar with track bar in front bolted on with the ubolts. You can sort of see them in my header video. I was still able to change to 6 degree shims with plenty of ubolt length left. Now it is possible his ubolts are different, but I suspect the real issue was they didn't tell the tech doing the job. If ubolt length was a concern they should have said let me check with the tech to make sure you have enough ubolt length before agreeing to do the job. Having done the shim swap $250 would be a bargain to have a alignment and shim swap.
I was just under my moho today and happened to look at those u-bolts. I'm not sure how much thicker a 5 degree wedge is, but there aren't a lot of threads left on the side with the steering stabilizer, so he may be right.

I blame the counter people as the alignment guy was very accommodating and would have done what I wanted if he'd known. In any case, they couldn't have redone it that day even if they'd had longer u-bolts because it was nearly closing time by then.
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Old 02-22-2021, 07:23 PM   #16
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I think maybe you had something else going on, Charlie. Mine is a 2004 6320, so same chassis as yours was, and it drives pretty well, though admittedly it took some aftermarket suspension goodies to get there. No doubt the W series feels like it has a higher center of gravity than my old P30, and the increased height and width make it a bit more of a challenge to drive.

Anyway, here's an interesting discussing about caster and "trail" from a couple years ago. I'd never heard of trail before and find it interesting that this fellow thinks too much caster can make mohos more sensitive to crosswinds.

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f23/what...nt-331059.html

Been windy here the last couple days, so maybe I should take my rig for a drive and see how it handles a stiff crosswind now.
My w22 was a pretty low mileage coach. It had a super steering stabilizer on it when I bought it. The PO had 115 lbs air in the tires on my trip home, and it rode like a log wagon. Wasn't satisfied with the coach right off the bat, but my late wife wanted it. I've had 4 P30 coachs and that W22 drove the worst of the lot. I put a front track bar on it, new tires inflated correctly for the weight, and a 5 degree castor shim in it. It drove better but not as good as my 3 Damons. I owned a Challenger 296 for 7 years, and pulled a race car on a trailer 70 mph all the time. Nary a problem. Then I owned a 32 ft 96 Daybreak for a year and it drove great too, but my wife got sick with cancer and we was going to have to travel for her surgery's so she wanted a more comfortable coach. She ended up passing before that could happen, so I used it a couple times after she passed. Didn't like it, didn't need the slides so I sold it and bought me another 96 Challenger 216 in wheel base coach. Drives much better, and gets much better fuel mileage to boot.
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Old 02-22-2021, 11:26 PM   #17
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My w22 was a pretty low mileage coach. It had a super steering stabilizer on it when I bought it. The PO had 115 lbs air in the tires on my trip home, and it rode like a log wagon. Wasn't satisfied with the coach right off the bat, but my late wife wanted it. I've had 4 P30 coachs and that W22 drove the worst of the lot. I put a front track bar on it, new tires inflated correctly for the weight, and a 5 degree castor shim in it. It drove better but not as good as my 3 Damons. I owned a Challenger 296 for 7 years, and pulled a race car on a trailer 70 mph all the time. Nary a problem. Then I owned a 32 ft 96 Daybreak for a year and it drove great too, but my wife got sick with cancer and we was going to have to travel for her surgery's so she wanted a more comfortable coach. She ended up passing before that could happen, so I used it a couple times after she passed. Didn't like it, didn't need the slides so I sold it and bought me another 96 Challenger 216 in wheel base coach. Drives much better, and gets much better fuel mileage to boot.

So sorry to hear about the situation with your wife. My wife's health is the reason I ended up with my Dolphin as well. She could no longer climb up the ladder to the bed in our class C and kept hitting her head on the bed when getting into the passenger seat, so I decided we needed something with a rear bed. A month after I bought the new coach she was diagnosed with a brain tumor and I was kicking myself for spending the money on it. It turned out to be the right thing though as we lived in it for six weeks while she was at Mayo Clinic for tests and surgery. That saved us a ton of money on hotels, and we were able to have our pets with us rather than hiring a pet sitter for six weeks. No way we would have all been comfortable in the old 23' class C (with no slide outs) for that amount of time! Fortunately, Susan is fully recovered now and is MUCH happier with the new (to us) coach.

No doubt it's hard enough to figure out a handling issue at the time, let alone after you've sold the rig. The alignment tech found my rear axle alignment to be off nearly 1/4", so perhaps yours had something like that could have been easily fixed if you'd found it. The important thing is that you now have a rig that you're comfortable with and you can't ask for better than that.
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Old 02-23-2021, 07:47 AM   #18
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Good Morning,

Sorry to hear about the illnesses that your wives experienced. Cam, I so glad your wife has returned to good health. My sympathies Charlie, it isn't good to have someone taken before their time.

Cam, Did the alignment shop give you a printout of before and after measurements of all the alignment parameter's? I would be interested in knowing those numbers for your coach.
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Old 02-23-2021, 11:22 AM   #19
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Good Morning,

Sorry to hear about the illnesses that your wives experienced. Cam, I so glad your wife has returned to good health. My sympathies Charlie, it isn't good to have someone taken before their time.

Cam, Did the alignment shop give you a printout of before and after measurements of all the alignment parameter's? I would be interested in knowing those numbers for your coach.
Here you go. I removed the name of the shop. They're in Phoenix and were recommended by someone on this site as a respected tire shop that deals primarily in motorhomes and large trucks.

Interesting that they've given me a little toe out and that this is within spec. Not saying this is wrong, but it's counter to what I've always heard for motorhomes. Also interesting that the spec itself seems to favor toe out. I'm assuming the specs they use came from Workhorse originally? I know from my SCCA days that some guys ran a little toe out in the front to help turn in, but I always ran a little toe in because it gave more straight line stability. Not straying too far from zero in either direction was ok for race cars though.

As you can see I had too much toe out before and the rear axle (thrust angle) was out as well.

Kpi stands for "King Pin Inclination". Not sure how this gets adjusted in a solid axle suspension. Seems like it would be the same as caster, but obviously it's not. I'm interested to know the relationship between the two. Have Googled the topic but can't say I've learned anything as most instruction centers around independent front suspensions.
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Old 02-23-2021, 08:07 PM   #20
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Alignment Frustration

Basically all he did was reset the toe. The caster was essentially unchanged. Pretty expensive toe set. You can do that on your driveway with a tape measure.
jt
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Old 02-23-2021, 08:45 PM   #21
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Basically all he did was reset the toe. The caster was essentially unchanged. Pretty expensive toe set. You can do that on your driveway with a tape measure.
jt
You're forgetting rear thrust angle and king pin inclination, unless the latter simply came right when they fixed the toe. In any case, I would not have known how/where to measure KPI or how to go about fixing it, though I suppose I could have figured it out.

The price of an alignment is not usually based on how many things they have to change, and of course there's no camber adjustment on these rigs anyway. They have a (probably very expensive) Hunter big-rig alignment rack, and I'm glad to know what the true measurements are whether they changed anything or not.

But yeah, I wish they had done what I asked, though the moho seems to drive very well now. Just waiting for a windy day to confirm that's still the case under less than ideal conditions. If not I plan to take it back and have them put more caster in.
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Old 02-24-2021, 08:38 AM   #22
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Good Morning,

Thanks for the info. I'm still trying to digest your numbers.

I, like you, thought that the KPI was similar but different than caster. Well it more akin to camber...but not really. See this ARTICLE.

The KPI is the line through the kingpin relative to the vertical as viewed from the FRONT!. The camber is then set by the relative lengths of the top and bottom arms of the steering knuckle. On our solid axle vehicles the KPI is set by the manufacturing process of the front axle. Camber is set by the manufacturing process of the steering knuckle relative to the KPI.

The question becomes...why are your before and after measurements different? Why are they different on only one side? Not knowing the specific measurements that the alignment machine makes to determine KPI limits our understanding of your numbers. We know that as the steering is turned from a straight line the actual camber is changed as determined by the KPI. Maybe the thrust angle caused the steering to be turned enough off center to affect the camber measurement from which the KPI is calculated!?

Less positive toe can reduce the tendency of the vehicle to wander.

Makes me think the first thing I should do is measure the thrust angle of my rear axle. That can be done in the driveway. I've done it on my Jeep! If it is off I'm not sure how to adjust it! Then check the toe..I can do that too! If I am still not satisfied with straight line performance I will tackle the caster shim thing!
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Old 02-24-2021, 11:52 AM   #23
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You're forgetting rear thrust angle and king pin inclination, unless the latter simply came right when they fixed the toe. In any case, I would not have known how/where to measure KPI or how to go about fixing it, though I suppose I could have figured it out.

The price of an alignment is not usually based on how many things they have to change, and of course there's no camber adjustment on these rigs anyway. They have a (probably very expensive) Hunter big-rig alignment rack, and I'm glad to know what the true measurements are whether they changed anything or not.

But yeah, I wish they had done what I asked, though the moho seems to drive very well now. Just waiting for a windy day to confirm that's still the case under less than ideal conditions. If not I plan to take it back and have them put more caster in.
If adjusting just the toe made that much difference driving, don't seem possible unless it was way off. I don't think changing the alignment will fix drivability during windy conditions. I just replaced all my ball joints, airbags, shocks, and steering stabilizer on my coach. Will need to get it aliened when it warms up a bit. The PO put ball joints in it and messed it up. Take a look at this photo. This one was cross threaded and the other one only had about 4 threads holding it on. Lucky I wasn't killed in this coach. NEVER trust some body elses work ! And it was aliened like this.
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Old 02-24-2021, 12:18 PM   #24
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If adjusting just the toe made that much difference driving, don't seem possible unless it was way off. I don't think changing the alignment will fix drivability during windy conditions. I just replaced all my ball joints, airbags, shocks, and steering stabilizer on my coach. Will need to get it aliened when it warms up a bit. The PO put ball joints in it and messed it up. Take a look at this photo. This one was cross threaded and the other one only had about 4 threads holding it on. Lucky I wasn't killed in this coach. NEVER trust some body elses work ! And it was aliened like this.
Looks more like a tie rod end than a ball joint.
jt
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Old 02-24-2021, 12:44 PM   #25
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Good Morning,

Thanks for the info. I'm still trying to digest your numbers.

I, like you, thought that the KPI was similar but different than caster. Well it more akin to camber...but not really. See this ARTICLE.

The KPI is the line through the kingpin relative to the vertical as viewed from the FRONT!. The camber is then set by the relative lengths of the top and bottom arms of the steering knuckle. On our solid axle vehicles the KPI is set by the manufacturing process of the front axle. Camber is set by the manufacturing process of the steering knuckle relative to the KPI.

The question becomes...why are your before and after measurements different? Why are they different on only one side? Not knowing the specific measurements that the alignment machine makes to determine KPI limits our understanding of your numbers. We know that as the steering is turned from a straight line the actual camber is changed as determined by the KPI. Maybe the thrust angle caused the steering to be turned enough off center to affect the camber measurement from which the KPI is calculated!?

Less positive toe can reduce the tendency of the vehicle to wander.

Makes me think the first thing I should do is measure the thrust angle of my rear axle. That can be done in the driveway. I've done it on my Jeep! If it is off I'm not sure how to adjust it! Then check the toe..I can do that too! If I am still not satisfied with straight line performance I will tackle the caster shim thing!
Yes, I'm suspecting excessive KPI could have been the result of thrust angle or simply too much toe-out, as it seems KPI changes with steering angle.
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Old 02-24-2021, 03:03 PM   #26
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Looks more like a tie rod end than a ball joint.
jt
Naw, it was a ball joint, drivers side. That is the caliper directly behind it.
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Old 02-25-2021, 07:50 PM   #27
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Finally got a breezy day so decided to take a test drive. In fact, I managed to drive right through a dust devil, which made things rock and roll a bit! Otherwise, steering wasn't too bad but still a few more small corrections than I would like, and I'm still curious about whether 5 or 6 degrees of caster will help that.

Rather than drive 180 miles down to have the alignment shop make things right, I decided to just buy some 3 degree wedges (and one longer U-bolt) from Brazels and do it myself. If I don't like the results, I can take them back out.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from this barn on wheels, but I've got lots of free time and working on the rig keeps me out of trouble!
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Old 02-25-2021, 09:57 PM   #28
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I ll be interested to hear what you think about drive improvement after installing the 3* shims
jt
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