Bosch Brakes strike again - do I hear an echo?

[deputydog]

Wow does this sound familar! Sounds like Daimler is a bit more agressive in fixing their problem than what I experienced.

Daimler Trucks North America has recalled some model years 2005 through 2012 Freightliner custom chassis incomplete motor home chassis due to a problem with the brakes, according to a release from the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration.
The recalled Freightliners were manufactured from March 18, 2005, through July 19, 2011, and came equipped with Bosch hydraulic disc brakes.
The chassis equipped with hydraulic brakes could experience diametrical brake caliper piston growth as well as reduced piston to bore clearance if the vehicles goes for long periods of time without driving. If that happens, the system could potentially have brake drag and overheating that could result in a reduction of brake performance and possibly a crash.
The recall potentially affects 2,287 units.
Daimler Trucks says it will notify owners, and dealers for the company will repair the vehicles for free. The safety recall should begin by July 20. Anyone with questions about the recall can call 1-800-547-0712.

[edgray]

Originally Posted by deputydog

Wow does this sound familar! Sounds like Daimler is a bit more agressive in fixing their problem than what I experienced. .....

YES, It is much easier for FCCC to get BOSCH to recognize the problem, since it has already been "discovered" by NHTSA and Workhorse. IOW, "they" don't need to re-invent that wheel.....

[UFO Pilot]

If Daimler is more aggressive, why didn't they start their recall when Workhorse started theirs??? Seems to me they are more than a little late, when the problem and the solution was identified quite a while ago.

[deputydog]

By being more agressive my point was that WH on two separate occasions refused to replace two of my calipers after they locked up because I caught them in time (smelled them heating up and pulled over until they released). They said they weren't locked up at the time I took it in - Duhhhh...

I got the following answers from WH:

"it's because you don't drive it regularly (I drive it a minimum of once a week)
"It's because the linkage shaft is not properly lubricated" (mine had a zerk and it was greased)
"It's because you didn't change the brake fluid on a regular basis (I have corporate 4WD vehicles that are driven under water fairly regularly (one is a 1976 and it has NEVER had the fluid changed or flushed and never a locked caliper and it sits for weeks and sometimes months at a time)
"it's because you ride the brakes (I have a CDL, have been a volunteer MCI bus driver for years and am an Airline Transport rated pilot - if you ride the brakes on an aircraft you have real issues)

Out of frustration I finally paid over $1,000 to have mine replaced (WH finally agreed to pay for two) with the still defective ones so I could at least use my RV until they came up with a fix. Only several months after I paid for those did WH/Bosch admit they had a defective product and replaced the few months old ones with the new designed ones.

Daimler is saying they will replace them - plain and simple - seems a more agressive approach to keep happy customers.

[max49]

I think Navistar knew they and WH were finished with the RV industry and knew there was no incentive to keep customers happy. They knew there would be no repeat business regardless and the brake recall just made the newly acquired WH a big liability.
I always thought Navistar should know how to build or buy another gas engine since they build diesel engines, but in hindsight, they already had plenty of problems getting their diesel engines approved.
I still think it's a damn shame that WH nor Navistar could even begin to keep Ford honest, much less, compete with them.
It seems Navistar competed better suing in court than in the marketplace for quite awhile but that luck seems to be running out also.
I believe the bottom line is, WH could not afford the recall and Navistar either could'nt either or they figured their reputation would'nt be hurt by their newly acquired red headed stepchild , Workhorse problem. Fortunately, Bosch finally came through.
I like my MH and god knows, I hope for the best with it, but I can't see how any one can keep defending the chassis builder after they sold out to Nav. who could care less about us previous customers.

[Oemtech]

Workhorse didn't do anything about the brake problem other than make excuses due to the "total cost" of the recall. Workhorse/Bosch didn't step up to the plate until then had to. The Feds forced their hand and Workhorse/Bosch did a "voluntary recall" that took dang near 2 more years to complete. But even then it was only a caliper replacement... no pads, no rotors and not even a brake fluid flush, top off only.

[wa8yxm]

Originally Posted by UFO Pilot

If Daimler is more aggressive, why didn't they start their recall when Workhorse started theirs??? Seems to me they are more than a little late, when the problem and the solution was identified quite a while ago.

Great question.

Workhorse, at first, looked and looked for lower cost answers, And in some cases they found them. But finally they had to admit the BOSCH brakes were the issue..

What I do not understand is why Workhorse is the one replacign them, Shouldn't it be Bosch, I mean they built the defective part, adn the replacement as well.

My question is why Freightliner did not come out with the recall like the day after Workhorse issued theirs.

[max49]

Originally Posted by wa8yxm

Great question.

Workhorse, at first, looked and looked for lower cost answers, And in some cases they found them. But finally they had to admit the BOSCH brakes were the issue..

What I do not understand is why Workhorse is the one replacign them, Shouldn't it be Bosch, I mean they built the defective part, adn the replacement as well.

My question is why Freightliner did not come out with the recall like the day after Workhorse issued theirs.

It was a WH chassis, they chose to buy the brakes from Bosch, they could have chose to put a different brand of brakes on and be pro active but they chose to do nothing unless Bosch came up with an answer.
I believe at the time prior to the recall , the problems were only with WH chassis and I don't think Freightliner was listed on the recall. At least it appears that Freightliner is not going to make the NTSA go through a 2 yr process of officially ordering them to recall their affected vehicles.
I doubt WH could have afforded the recall even if they wanted to and probably did'nt have insurance to cover it either.
I really don't understand why , Winnebago, Thor, Fleetwoood and other Brands just get a "Free Pass" and were not held one bit responsible. But they may may have learned from it because they sure did'nt build many houses on WH chassis's after that.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by deputydog

Daimler is saying they will replace them - plain and simple - seems a more aggressive approach to keep happy customers.

it's exponentially easy for them to say that NOW in hindsight when all the leg work has already been accomplished by Workhorse/Bosch & NHTSA.

Daimler today has the advantage of advance notice that a problem with the caliper exists since Bosch TOLD them that the caliper is defective. NHTSA over saw the interaction between supplier the OEM and the customer.

A caliper has been engineered as a result of some 5 years of investigation and preliminary work. The supply chain is now full of replacement calipers.

There is no guess work on the part of Daimler therefore the language that they are using is appropriate to resolve the problem and I don't see them as having proactivly jumped through hoops to make any of this happen.

They are just the beneficiary of the work that has already been done.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by oemtech

But even then it was only a caliper replacement... no pads, no rotors and not even a brake fluid flush, top off only.

Dale, If you find out if Freightliner is going to replace all the pads, calipers, ABS sensors and rotors on their recalled vehicles please let us know.

In regard to fluids, the way one shop did it was different from another. My shop vacuumed out the booster tank and bled out the calipers. This is one more step than just the top off you claim. Other quality dealers like Brazels and Redlands (& many others) completely flushed out the systems.

You know Dale, some one could give you a 20K Gold shovel to continue to bury Workhorse but I expect that would not be enough.

[ga traveler]

Originally Posted by wa8yxm

Great question.

Workhorse, at first, looked and looked for lower cost answers, And in some cases they found them. But finally they had to admit the BOSCH brakes were the issue..

What I do not understand is why Workhorse is the one replacign them, Shouldn't it be Bosch, I mean they built the defective part, adn the replacement as well.

My question is why Freightliner did not come out with the recall like the day after Workhorse issued theirs.

I remember back in the sixties when Sears Silvertone TV's were a piece of junk. They were made by RCA and sears blamed RCA for the problems. Come to find out, Sears had come to RCA and brought the plans for the TV's. They were crap because Sears had specified low cost parts and cheap chassis. I don't know the facts, but its a possibility WH drew up the specs and only had Bosch manuf. them to their specs. If Bosch designed and handled all the manuf. process, they should stand behind their product. If they only manuf. the brakes to WH's spec., I can see why they would not stand behind them.

[Spoonman]

Originally Posted by DriVer

it's exponentially easy for them to say that NOW in hindsight when all the leg work has already been accomplished by Workhorse/Bosch & NHTSA.

Daimler today has the advantage of advance notice that a problem with the caliper exists since Bosch TOLD them that the caliper is defective. NHTSA over saw the interaction between supplier the OEM and the customer.

A caliper has been engineered as a result of some 5 years of investigation and preliminary work. The supply chain is now full of replacement calipers.

There is no guess work on the part of Daimler therefore the language that they are using is appropriate to resolve the problem and I don't see them as having proactivly jumped through hoops to make any of this happen.

They are just the beneficiary of the work that has already been done.

Now that is a joke! Workhorse and Bosch did nothing but deny there was a problem until chassis owners bombarded the NHTSA complaints and evidence of defects.
The govt dragged Workhorse into this kicking and screaming that it was anything but the brakes.

[Oemtech]

Originally Posted by DriVer

Dale, If you find out if Freightliner is going to replace all the pads, calipers, ABS sensors and rotors on their recalled vehicles please let us know.

Let's see now.... Seized calipers, glaze the pads and warp the rotors and all you get is new calipers. Wrong answer.... You fixed what is broke.

In regard to fluids, the way one shop did it was different from another. My shop vacuumed out the booster tank and bled out the calipers. This is one more step than just the top off you claim. Other quality dealers like Brazels and Redlands (& many others) completely flushed out the systems.

Lot's of shops did a complete flush and brake bleed as they know how to do a proper brake job. But, who/whom paid for this extra work? Probably the customer. But, Workhorse only provided enough fluid to top off. They also did not provide warranty time for bleeding the brakes, this according to the shop that did mine. But, for an extra $1,500 you got get pads & rotors.

You know Dale, some one could give you a 20K Gold shovel to continue to bury Workhorse but I expect that would not be enough.

I don't have to bury Workhorse they did it themselves and if I did get a shovel I would melt it down for the gold.

[Oemtech]

Originally Posted by DriVer

it's exponentially easy for them to say that NOW in hindsight when all the leg work has already been accomplished by Workhorse/Bosch & NHTSA.

Daimler today has the advantage of advance notice that a problem with the caliper exists since Bosch TOLD them that the caliper is defective. NHTSA over saw the interaction between supplier the OEM and the customer.

A caliper has been engineered as a result of some 5 years of investigation and preliminary work. The supply chain is now full of replacement calipers.

There is no guess work on the part of Daimler therefore the language that they are using is appropriate to resolve the problem and I don't see them as having proactivly jumped through hoops to make any of this happen.

They are just the beneficiary of the work that has already been done.

BS - The caliper pistons were fitted poorly, not enough clearance and used the light duty phenolic coating.

IIRC there are on 2 OEMS of phenolic coatings in the US and only 2 approved coating formulas. Bosch/Workhorse choose the light duty version on the first go around and the heavy duty version on the second go around. I believe I documented this with links to the OEMS and PDF's of the coating formulas back in the Workhorse brake thread.