Brake Problems

[jcghost]

This is about the last straw. I have read the many posts regarding the brake problems....(what seems to be) total disregard for putting out a product that has serious life safety issues? 33,000 miles and the unit needs a $3,000.00 brake job.

Post edited to remove dis-allowed content. iRV2.com will not be used to promote legal action. ED

[jcghost]

This is about the last straw. I have read the many posts regarding the brake problems....(what seems to be) total disregard for putting out a product that has serious life safety issues? 33,000 miles and the unit needs a $3,000.00 brake job.

Post edited to remove dis-allowed content. iRV2.com will not be used to promote legal action. ED

[jcghost]

Sorry for the improper content. If anyone wants to send me a private message they can get the complete post. Thank You

[DriVer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jcghost:
This is about the last straw. I have read the many posts regarding the brake problems....(what seems to be) total disregard for putting out a product that has serious life safety issues? 33,000 miles and the unit needs a $3,000.00 brake job. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>jcghost, What's your year, make and model? I might have taken you 6 or more years to spin up 33,000 miles.

[hwybnb]

Please repost your story in politically correct terms.

[jcghost]

Actually "DriVer" it shouldn't make any difference if the coach was built in 1942 the miles are what counts. It is a 2003 Pace Arrow 35G by the way. It looks like from this forum that the brakes have been a problem for a long time and are still a problem in the later coaches. I realize Workhorse did a recall on a select number of units but still continues to ignore the vast number of problems still occuring. It looks like Workhorse has chosen to ignore the problem until something unthinkable happens.

[DriVer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jcghost:
Actually "DriVer" it shouldn't make any difference if the coach was built in 1942 the miles are what counts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>jcghost, Perfect! Not even out of the blocks yet and I'm in the doghouse again.

Would you drive a car that was built in 1942 that has had little or no preventative maintenance? Time makes a big difference in any type of equipment built by man including Rolex watches.

Would you really expect no brake problems if routine maintenance had not been applied since day one? I'm posting about caliper lubrication, Z bar lubrication and hydraulic brake system flushes. These concerns and issues are valid and have been written about by many owners that have mitigated and dealt with their individual brake issues.

If you are here simply to complain about your brakes, we already have many developed threads for that purpose.

If you want help with your problem we can offer those remedies as well.

[CJBROWN]

Fortunately we have a new thread to post on. 74 pages on the other is just ridiculous to try and read through. I got about half way thru; what a bunch of back-biting and finger pointing.

I wonder what percentage of chassis built have actually had a premature brake failure. Any stats on that? Seems to me the NTHSB (sp?) had some 700 complaints, how many 'W' chassis were built?

I have 18K on mine, not a lick of trouble. For a couple of thousand it towed a 4200lb jeep rockcrawler with 35" tires and no brakes. Never had a problem. But I never stand on the brakes, and on grades down run in 3rd gear at 40-45mph.

Another interesting stat....Bosch also produced the fuel injection nozzles for the Duramax diesel (I have one of those too). For the 2000 to 2004.5 model (LB7 disignation) it seems that some 70-80% have failed injectors. GM authorized a campaign to replace them up to 7 years or 200K miles. In that particular model, they buried them so far under the top of the motor that it's a 10 hour R&R, and the injectors run about $400 each. So it's like a $4000 job. I also understand it is the most expensive recall/warranty coverage GM has ever had.

Makes one wonder about Bosch engineering and manufacturing.

Has anyone posted a field remedy for a stuck caliper? From what I read, neither a regular fluid flush nor pin lube service has made any difference. Maybe the bellcrank zerk, or the ABS unit?

[DriVer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CJBROWN:
Has anyone posted a field remedy for a stuck caliper? From what I read, neither a regular fluid flush nor pin lube service has made any difference. Maybe the bellcrank zerk, or the ABS unit? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>CJBROWN, The immediate field remedy for a stuck caliper is to allow it to sit and cool. I know it works because I've been there and done that on my 2001 ZOPS equipped W20. The bell-crank's zerk is a good PM location however it does not in of itself when lubricated fix a problem.

Disabling the ABS system has already been ruled out as a source that might cause the caliper to hang. ABS either works or not and as such it's my understanding that it does not provide any pressure at all but only pulsates the existing pressure on demand.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">From what I read, neither a regular fluid flush .... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That has not been disproved in fact going forward I have new brakes and I will be flushing annually. I'll keep everyone informed. We have read where owners that have pursued a bi-annual brake flush strategy since the vehicle was delivered have not reported problems. Max Hubrich just changed his brake fluid and he reported it looked like Coca Cola .. not a good thing. Flushing and keeping brake fluid in pristine shape is the least expensive and probably the best thing an owner can do to maintain the performance of their hydraulic brake system.

[CJBROWN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">&gt;snip
That has not been disproved in fact going forward I have new brakes and I will be flushing annually. I'll keep everyone informed. We have read where owners that have pursued a bi-annual brake flush strategy since the vehicle was delivered have not reported problems. Max Hubrich just changed his brake fluid and he reported it looked like Coca Cola .. not a good thing. Flushing and keeping brake fluid in pristine shape is the least expensive and probably the best thing an owner can do to maintain the performance of their hydraulic brake system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is surprising that this recommendation is not so commonplace on domestic vehicles. We also have a BMW 3-series and the maintenance schecule clearly calls for a fluid flush every two years. Since brake fluid absorbs moisture, the internal parts of that system are susceptible to corrosion, and terribly expensive. BTW, they burn up a set of thousand-dollar brakes every 15-20K miles. Plus it may be an indication that hot brakes can cook fluid on those cars since they are performance oriented. I'm on the fourth set of front brakes on that car at 80K miles. The rears are holding this time around. And it burns up a thousand dollar set of tires every 20K miles too (wifey's 'vertible )

On the coach I do know I've gotten some glazing due to dust and heavy towing loads from the past, as I get some occasional squeaking. But it's never gotten bad enough nor any other trouble to warrant pulling the pads and rotors off to resurface them.

I'm sorry to hear there have been so many with troubles. Tire and brake failures on the road are no fun, for sure.

[Max Hubrich]

I had my Malibu in for tire rotation and alignment this week. A tie rod end was worn. The tech said that a number of newer cars all have phenolic pistons in the calipers and many are experiencing brake problems nowadays--ugh.

Why in the world are any manufacturers using plastic parts in brake systems that are subject to high heat, stop and go, road conditions?

A sad chapter in todays equipment-- If I had one of those pistons in my hand I'd be in my shop making them out of aluminum right now-- any body got one??

[DriVer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Max Hubrich:
A sad chapter in todays equipment-- If I had one of those pistons in my hand I'd be in my shop making them out of aluminum right now-- any body got one?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Max, thank you for coming in and contributing to this thread.

What if we had metal pistons in our calipers and it was determined that the materials transmitted too much heat? I'm wondering would that be reason enough to consider using phenolic pistons to keep the heat from adversely affecting caliper performance? If that's the case how about a metal faced phenolic piston?

Oemy wrote a post about swapping out the pistons in a Vette with metal (steel) pistons and the car did very well from that point forward. No more brake problems. I'm not confident that your idea for an aluminum piston would work that well because aluminum is a super heat conductor. How about titanium, at least I bet it wouldn't expand as much as aluminum. Oops! Now we're jacking up the cost. Last time I looked the automotive companies were going broke. It would seem the use of space age technology would be excluded due to cost alone. What is the right mix of performance vs cost? Who determines that, the engineers or the accountants? These are all questions that I hope we get answers to and see a resolution for soon.

I'm hoping at the end of the day we'll obtain some type of forensic evidence regarding the calipers and what exactly the problems may be. It seems to me that someone had to put some type of engineering expertise into these things. Ya have to ask yourself a question, were they really thinking of obsolescing the calipers in a short period of time or is some other variable effecting the performance of the calipers? It just couldn't be something as simple as changing brake fluid more often - or - could it? We're reading all types of horror stories about how the fluid presents when its aged. Laden with moisture, hydraulic fluid slurry pits the components and degrades the performance of the materials in the system.

I'm going to remain optimistic with my new brakes and pursue a vigorous maintenance schedule. I certainly do hope that I will get the over 60,000 miles of service that I received from my last set of brakes.

[hawg6]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DriVer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CJBROWN:
Has anyone posted a field remedy for a stuck caliper? From what I read, neither a regular fluid flush nor pin lube service has made any difference. Maybe the bellcrank zerk, or the ABS unit? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>CJBROWN, The immediate field remedy for a stuck caliper is to allow it to sit and cool. I know it works because I've been there and done that on my 2001 ZOPS equipped W20. The bell-crank's zerk is a good PM location however it does not in of itself when lubricated fix a problem.

Disabling the ABS system has already been ruled out as a source that might cause the caliper to hang. ABS either works or not and as such it's my understanding that it does not provide any pressure at all but only pulsates the existing pressure on demand.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">From what I read, neither a regular fluid flush .... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That has not been disproved in fact going forward I have new brakes and I will be flushing annually. I'll keep everyone informed. We have read where owners that have pursued a bi-annual brake flush strategy since the vehicle was delivered have not reported problems. Max Hubrich just changed his brake fluid and he reported it looked like Coca Cola .. not a good thing. Flushing and keeping brake fluid in pristine shape is the least expensive and probably the best thing an owner can do to maintain the performance of their hydraulic brake system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I have changed calipers, pins and brake shoes with only 23,400 miles on my MH. Will drive it tomorrow for the first time after rebuild. Flushed the brake fluid at 20,000 plus miles, added the zerk to the bell crank when first posted on IRV2, Lubed the pins annually, but still had two lock-ups. Whatever brake system Workhorse installed prior to 2002 and post 2004 appear to not to have the brake lock-up problems the 2002 through 2004 chassis' have. I doubt the owners of the pre 2002 and post 2004 chassis' performed better maintenance then the owners of the problem chassis. I could not find in the owner manual where the brake fluid needs to be flushed. After my brake problems I obtained a copy of the "Workhorse Gas Motor Home Chassis Guide" which states "Although there is not a recommended service interval to change the brake fluid listed in your owners manual, the recommendation by a number of the brake manufacturers is every two to three years." I don't have a problem performing the correct maintenance, be it flush brake fluid yearly, every second years or whenever is required, but if it is this critical Workhorse needs to apprise the owners in writing of the timing. From the rally there was word that the NHTSA and Bosch would make an announcement relative to the existing brake problem, which would indicate to me that there is more of an issue than just changing brake fluid. From all indications my new brake parts are the same configuration as my as shipped (original) parts. I, as others have done, just spent a large amount of money in hopes my brakes will be without failure until NHTSA/Bosch/Workhorse come forward with a positive fix for the recurring brake problem. The next failure will be justification to dump this Workhorse chassis for a MH with safe/reliable brakes. You just can not ignore safety issues. The cost, in my case, to make a POSITIVE fix to the existing MH brakes would be alot less expensive than baling out and purchasing another MH. Currently that is not an option, as NHTSA/Bosch/Workhorse have not offered any details on what to do. Just wait for the next caliper to cease up and hope you catch the failure before there is a fire or wreck. Hope it cools down without permanent damage and drive on. WHAT A WAY TO TRAVEL!!!!

[DriVer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hawg6:
Whatever brake system Workhorse installed prior to 2002 and post 2004 appear to not to have the brake lock-up problems the 2002 through 2004 chassis' have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>hawg6, Your timeline doesn't support the facts in this case. ZOPS brakes were supplied from the onset on the W-Series in 2001 and sunset in early 2003. In year 2003 the ZOHT caliper was introduced and it has been in continued use ever since.

The ZOPS brakes were subject to a recall the 50401-C. Although there are many here who have endured problems with their ZOHT brakes, I am like you waiting to hear what the resolution may be to owner's issues with their brakes which I believe will be forth coming.

About brake fluid, I have learned more about it from search engines and the experience of the owner members here on iRV2.