How To PERMANENTLY fix your W20-W22 Brakes

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by idenphones

I just recently did a bleed and flush on our coach and the master sure does put out allot of fluid per stroke. Now are the larger calipers going to make a big difference?

idenphones, In some engineering strategies they do make a big difference because they are called upon to stop more GVW, up to 26,000 pounds. Vehicles from 22,000 pounds to 20,500 pounds do not require 73mm calipers any more than a W18 needs to use the Bosch pin slide 66mm calipers. In the OP we have seen where 73mm calipers were applied however the Hydro-Max was not changed and it does indeed provide more than enough energy to apply the 73mm units.

In my opinion the Hydro-Max that is used on the 73mm application of the Ford is the same as the Hydro-Max that is used on the Workhorse using 66mm calipers. A Hydro-Max booster is also used with the Arvin Meritor Quadraulic 4 piston calipers.

It is altogether possible to fit 73mm calipers to a vehicle however on a 31- to 32 foot long W20 Trek are 73mm calipers required or preferred? My sensibilities tell me that I wouldn't want to use Boeing 747 disk brakes on a Piper Cub. That's just my opinion and in practice I would engineer to meet and exceed the requirements but I wouldn't want to be killing flies with hand grenades.

[GOLDWINGER2]

According to the 'stepvan.com' site, there are three master cylinders, all have a 2" bore size. Just different ports for sensors and switches.
J

[Topflite51]

Parked next to me is a candidate for one of the solutions that has been posted on the forum. When he pulled in yesterday his left front brake was squealing, said he was averaging about 200 miles a day with problem, rotating back and forth between left and right. On his way home. According to him, WH will do nothing more for him until recall has been performed. Said WH service center employee, simply 'rolled his eyes' when asked when that would be. I have told him about the two possible solutions that have been put forward on here. Said when he gets the turkey home, he will discuss them with his mechanic.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by Topflite51

Said WH service center employee, simply 'rolled his eyes' when asked when that would be. I have told him about the two possible solutions that have been put forward on here. Said when he gets the turkey home, he will discuss them with his mechanic.

Topflite51, I'm not sure how that is possible, perhaps you can send me a PM so that I can help this gentleman get in touch with service assets that will help him. If the mechanic he is talking about is a service center so much the better but any good HD shop should be able to do a brake job.

[Mutha]

Let me say "Thanks" to Mike (Driver) for doing such a great job in answering all the questions that have come up. I also want to make sure that everyone knows I am NOT advocating everyone with a W-20/22 with 66mm Bosch brakes run out and install the 73mm Calipers and Pads.

What I said in my original post: (QUOTE) "For those of you that have parked your rig because you are AFRAID to drive it - THIS IS YOUR FIX so you can get back on the road and FORGET ABOUT THE WORKHORSE RECALL FOREVER!!" (END QUOTE) I just wanted to let the guys that have their Rigs parked (some for over a year), waiting for the recall, because they are AFRAID to drive them, that they do have another choice that would get them back on the road immediately with complete "PEACE OF MIND". As Mike pointed out in his #12 post : (QUOTE)".....Out of pocket vs free" That's going to be a big decision." (END QUOTE). That quote is true, but sometimes "Peace of Mind" is worth paying out of pocket for - why else would you pay for a security alarm or put locks on your valuable property, etc., etc.?

Most all of the questions are answered in Mikes STICKY at the top of the forum on "Bosch Pin Slide Brake Manual", but evidently no one is taking the time to read the manual, so I am going to post a few more photos of the pads that I didn't have room to put in the original post.

The photos show the difference in the 66mm STANDARD service Pads Vs the 73mm SEVERE service Pads.
The ACDelco 66mm STANDARD duty Pads are part#17D786M;
The International 73mm SEVERE (HEAVY) duty Pads are part#2596038C1;
The FORD 73mm SEVERE (HEAVY) duty Pads are part#8C4Z-2001-AA;
The 66mm pads can be used in the 73mm Calipers, but the 73mm pads CAN NOT be used in the 66mm calipers because of their thickness.

On Page 8 of the Bosch Manual (STICKY) it explains the different uses:
(QUOTE) "PFC-50-EF or HX-7A!-EE is recommended for most applications. This normal to heavier duty cycles with GVWRs typically greater than 26,000 lb. Typically, these vehicles will operate in medium to heavy duty cycles with hilly to mountainous terrain, stop-and-go driving, quick stops from higher speeds, etc. This results in the linings being exposed to brake temperatures greater than 450° F for prolonged periods." (END QUOTE)

I must say I disagree with Mike in that the 73mm Calipers with the Severe Duty Pads may be an "overkill" on my W20 TREK, but I do not have the luxury of the super cool BRAZEL's TRANSMISSION GRADE BRAKE on my Allison 5 speed like Mike does! I go to the Quartzsite RV show every year and my route takes me through ShowLow, AZ down to Superior, AZ down some harrowing 10% to 12% mountain grades , some over 6 miles long with right angle turns. This past January was my first chance to test my new brakes and they were TEN TIMES better than my old 66mm brakes - I cannot describe the major difference in descending the mountain grades with the heavier duty brakes. I did also attend the NATIONAL TREK RALLY in Amana, IA in June of this year, and from McKinney, TX to Amana, IA is pretty flat and Mike would be correct in that the new 73mm brakes didn't do any better than my old 66mm brakes, but I did not have to make any high speed panic stops or descend any long mountain grades !

I have only put about 5500 miles on my rig since I installed the 73mm brakes last year, but so far, if I had to go back to the 66mm, I would sell my rig first - they make that much difference in stopping power. THE MOUNTAINS ARE THE TRUE TEST.

Continued blessings to all - Glenn.

[Photog]

Originally Posted by Mutha

What I said in my original post:"For those of you that have parked your rig because you are AFRAID to drive it - THIS IS YOUR FIX so you can get back on the road and FORGET ABOUT THE WORKHORSE RECALL FOREVER!!"

I have only put about 5500 miles on my rig since I installed the 73mm brakes last year, but so far, if I had to go back to the 66mm, I would sell my rig first - they make that much difference in stopping power.

Continued blessings to all - Glenn.

You have provided some outstanding information. Thank you.

[JCM]

There is no such thing as overkill when some [moderator edit] pulls right in front of you and you need to stop NOW or going down a long ---- long pass.
Workhorse - like the army - supplies what is necessary and just that. A little extra is allways nice.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by JCM

Workhorse - like the army - supplies what is necessary and just that. A little extra is always nice.

JCM, I would take exception to your position. There is absolutely nothing low bid on a Workhorse chassis and everything was carefully orchestrated and considered before implementation on their vehicles. From the 50,000 psi steel in their rails throughout the line from 20,500 GVW and above to the 6-Speed Allison transmission including the best engine for the time the Vortec 8.1. The Bosch Hydro-Max hydraulic brake system so much in play at the moment on the Workhorse has been emulated by its competition however Workhorse stands head and shoulders above its peers to the point where there is no comparison that can be made. The Workhorse W-Series gasoline powered chassis is unique and will not be soon duplicated however it will continue to be emulated for years to come.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by Mutha

Continued blessings to all - Glenn.

Glenn, I have not recently read a post such as yours that has been so well thought out, implemented and reported that kept to the facts and exhibited the results for the effort applied in as unbiased of report as humanly possible. I commend you for the effort and I wish you well in your endeavors.

[JCM]

Driver - Agreed it is an excellent chassis except for the brakes. Brakes are not a new item on vehicles but were still poorly made for this chassis.
I would still recommend it over a Ford because of the 8.1 and the Alison transmission but I would and have warned others about the brakes.
I would have rather spent more money on the initial purchase to get descent shocks, instrument panel, oil pump extension shaft, manifolds and brakes rather than having to add them later.
Workhorse's attitude did me in, although they did some repairs without a hassle they were very rude and arrogant in the beginning about the brake problems and don't seem to be stepping upto the plate now. It has been over 16 months since the prommised upgrade of the calipers.
The buyer of my coach is extremely happy with the performance and is aware of the brake fault. He is a heavy duty mechanic and can do needed repairs until the brake recall ever comes about. I have sent him the 76 mm conversion information. I feel that that mod and the Henderson’s rotors (or something similar) would have made me keep the unit. Oh well now I have new things to deal with and learn about.
Driver – please keep up your feedback and posts because they are so informative to a user.
I still feel that the “bottom line” is the main factor in the design and production of a vehicle – all manufacturers.

[Topflite51]

No can do Driver, he pulled out about an hour after my post. His next stop is in Truckee, CA. I wished him well.

[ron55]

thanks you Mutha for your great post, I certainly do appreciate the information.

[speed racer]

I can brake my W22 hard enough to ingauge the antilock braking so I don't think its posible to stop any better than that.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by speed racer

I can brake my W22 hard enough to ingauge the anti-lock braking so I don't think its possible to stop any better than that.

SR, A couple of years ago I was running south in Florida on the 301 through Starke, FL in traffic when all of a sudden a car in front of me decided it was a good time to apply their brakes. If you know Starke there's not a lot of maneuvering room there so it was hard on the brake. The road surface must have had a coating of sand on it because as soon as I hit the brakes, the ABS circuit cut in. I held my breath for a second and came to an immediate stop which I thought was remarkable given the GCW of my rig. Accident avoided, brakes work great! (including the auxiliary brake BTW - SMI Stay-In-Play)

There are also many other stories in my over 87,000 miles of travel over the past 7 years of ownership but that one was the closest to getting into a rear end situation that I remember.

The other time was a close-in encounter in Wilmington, DE on the south side of the DelMemBr. In that event the Bully Air Horns saved the day!