RV Trip Planning Discussions

Go Back   iRV2 Forums > THE CHASSIS CLUB FORUMS > Workhorse and Chevrolet Chassis Motorhome Forum
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-24-2008, 11:56 AM   #1
iRV2 Marketing
 
DriVer's Avatar
 
Winnebago Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Coastal Campers
Carolina Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Conway, SC
Posts: 23,573
Blog Entries: 70
Merry Christmas!
__________________
03 Adventurer 38G, Workhorse W22
F&R Track Bars, Safety+ , Ultrapower, Taylor Extremes, SGII
TST 507, Blue Ox, SMI, Koni FSD, CrossFire
RV/MH Hall of Fame - Lifetime Member
DriVer is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-24-2008, 11:56 AM   #2
iRV2 Marketing
 
DriVer's Avatar
 
Winnebago Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Coastal Campers
Carolina Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Conway, SC
Posts: 23,573
Blog Entries: 70
Merry Christmas!
__________________
03 Adventurer 38G, Workhorse W22
F&R Track Bars, Safety+ , Ultrapower, Taylor Extremes, SGII
TST 507, Blue Ox, SMI, Koni FSD, CrossFire
RV/MH Hall of Fame - Lifetime Member
DriVer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2008, 02:08 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 274
Well thank you Driver. A Merry Christmas to you and all the IRV2 Forum members.

o.u.b.
__________________
Resident AutoPark Expert
oldusedbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2008, 03:59 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Oemtech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jarrell, TX 76537
Posts: 4,447
Send a message via AIM to Oemtech
OUB... Merry Christmas & Happy New Year.

I think I can speak for most if not all of the IRV2 community saying THANK YOU for all your work on the 2 versions of the Auto Park system. Single handily you have done more than most factory trained techs have done and ALL FOR FREE. There is no way that we can possibly repay for your work. Thanks again.

If you ever have a chance to look at Brazel's replacement for the Auto Park system we would love here what you think.
__________________
Dale
AKA - Oemy
Oemtech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2008, 04:02 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Floridakamper's Avatar
 
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fleming Island, Fl
Posts: 821
Merry Christmas oldusedbear from someone you've helped TWICE.
__________________
Bob & Leah, USN Retired
2016 Itasca Suncruiser 38Q/SOLD
2014 Chevy Equinox LTZ/Blue Ox Tow Bar
Floridakamper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2008, 04:44 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think I can speak for most if not all of the IRV2 community saying THANK YOU for all your work on the 2 versions of the Auto Park system. Single handily you have done more than most factory trained techs have done and ALL FOR FREE. There is no way that we can possibly repay for your work. Thanks again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
_____________________________________________
What he said.....
tom
tom112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2008, 09:04 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 274
Again, our thanks for all the kind comments. I get a lot of satisfaction out of trying to help folks with their AutoPark problems. Just got one this morning from Spain, no less.

On comparing the AutoPark system to the one which Brazel's is offering - -

I'd have to start by saying that in no way do I want to start a "contest." Brazel's has obviously put a lot of work and thought into their system. They have a great reputation for doing things right.

I also can really identify with those who make whatever kinds of additions or modifications for "peace of mind." Not too long ago, I went thru the process (pretty lengthy) of putting steel spark plug thread inserts into all ten cylinders of my V10 - - which powers my present RV ride - - a 23 foot Coach House. Anyhow, I got a fair number of digs from the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" gallery on the FTE and RV.net forums. Just the same, it was worth the time, money, and effort to ME for the peace of mind factor.

Comparing the different approaches to the "AutoPark question," is a pretty big project. The earlier versions of AutoPark which run off of the power steering pump, are really quite different from the later versions with their own pump and reservoir. I've never had a clue as to how many of each version has been built so don't know how to include that in the equation.

Having said that, I would still say that I think the earlier versions may have a better record for reliability. Certainly so in regards to unexpected lockup of the parking brake. They run on far lower pressures, have NO Rotten Green Switch, and fewer electronic components. I should quickly add that I don't even know if Brazel's can, or does make a conversion for the earlier models. In any event, I would think that there might be fewer reasons to modify the earlier versions than there would be to modify the later ones - - just opinion, no hard numbers that I have.

As regards the newer AutoParks - - basically those built from the latter part of 94 thru the most recent. Most of these (maybe 80 to 90 percent as a guess) run off of the Parker/Oildyne pump. The pumps themselves seem to be incredibly reliable. Usually, when we hear of one being replaced, it is not the pump itself that has gone bad, but the pump/motor switch (RGS or Rotten Green Switch) that has failed. In a much smaller number of cases, there are problems with the poppet valve attached to the pump - - of the poppet problems, I'd guess about 80 percent of those are "service induced" which translates into someone lost some little bitty pieces when they replaced the RGS.

For a long time, we've guessed that about 85 percent of the failures are due to a failing, or failed RGS. We are pretty comfortable with that number. Of course there are other failures with different components, but most of them don't lead to the dreaded sudden and unexpected lockup of the parking brake. If RGS problems are detected and dealt with early enough, the lockup can usually be prevented.

Just my opinion: Much of the bad reputation of the AutoPark system is directly related to RGS problems. There are indeed other problems, some of which are a lot more tedious to find and fix, but they are a small percentage of the total. If we were talking ONLY about failures that cause a lockup, the RGS is THE BIG VILLAIN. That said, if one carries a spare RGS, a few simple tools, and (most importantly) the knowledge to see the problem coming and fix it early on, then we're talking about a 40 dollar, 15 minute fix. If you wait until you get a lockup in the fast lane, and then get rear-ended by an 18 wheeler, then the 40 dollar number obviously doesn't apply.

So "How To Compare?" I don't see a simple answer to that question. If I understand it correctly, Brazel's system is around 2400 dollars. The big question is "what are we comparing that to??" I've never heard of an entire AutoPark system (all the components) needing to be replaced. That isn't to say that it hasn't been done - - We've heard of a bad RGS leading a service outlet to replace the transmission. Also heard of several (unnecessary) total pump replacements etc.

It seems to me that you need to qualify SEVERAL different things before you can start making comparisons. We're not talking apples to oranges, we're talking California Fruit Baskets to ones you get in a totally different place and climate.

Most every thing we get involved with at the AutoPark Library, concerns RV owners who want to do their own work and repairs. So this is a HUGE difference to start with. You can carry the 40 buck RGS, and change it in way less than an hour. BUT, if you get locked up (we think that's mostly avoidable), run up a 600 buck towing bill, and another 750 bucks at some service outlet (especially one that doesn't know much about AutoPark), THEN you have a totally different basis of comparison.

So much of the "which is best" discussion is going to depend on several factors. Which version of AutoPark? Do you do your own repairs? How much are you willing to learn about how YOUR system works - - ahead of time?

And the other BIG question: How do you factor in your "level of comfort?" If you have had lots of crummy experiences with AutoPark, what are you willing to pay for a different system?

I'm afraid I'm asking more questions than I'm answering. If others have specific concerns about various components or features, we'll try to respond as best we can.

oldusedbear
__________________
Resident AutoPark Expert
oldusedbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2008, 03:33 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Oemtech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jarrell, TX 76537
Posts: 4,447
Send a message via AIM to Oemtech
Great post.. and I think you have answered the question.

I was thinking more of an engineering/function and not which is best or the cost when I fist posed the question.
__________________
Dale
AKA - Oemy
Oemtech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2008, 12:05 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 274
OK Dale - - I'll try to "lean in that direction."

Let's start by saying we are comparing both the earlier and later versions of AutoPark (the J71 type - as found on later Chev/GM/Workhorse, AND the power steering driven units on the earlier year models), with the system that Brazel's has introduced. The J72 system is not involved in this discussion - - It is a different beast. I should also say that I don't know much about the details of the Brazel setup - - so factor that in please.

All three systems utilize a HEAVY spring to apply the parking brake in the auto-apply mode. All three systems utilize the same driveline mounted brake drum - - behind the tranny. All three systems use a pressurized actuator to compress the heavy spring, and release the parking brake. Loss of pressure on any of the three systems will result in application of the brake.

Gm/Chev/WH, use hydraulic pressure from the power steering pump on earlier versions, and the separate electric pump on newer versions, to drive the actuator cylinder.

Brazel's uses compressed air instead of fluid pressure to drive their actuator.

In the most basic sense, I think we could agree that there are jillions of dependable hydraulic systems in use, as well as jillions of dependable air systems in use. Many types of applications - - including, but not limited to brakes. I don't see this issue becoming a tiebreaker, but diehards could maybe make the case that the aircraft industry certainly seems to lean towards hydraulics. The case can be made that oil, being basically non-compressable is more easily modulated than air. That doesn't really enter this discussion tho, because we are talking about am applied brake, or a not applied brake - - nothing in between these two conditions. The spring is either compressed or not compressed.

I would guess that air actuated cylinders may cost less than ones actuated by oil. I would be even more sure that air compressors should cost less than oil pumps. Still, I see no tiebreakers in the cost issue for purposes of this discussion.

From my limited perspective, I think MOST of the AutoPark failure or malfunction history, revolves around the pressure control systems, and the ability to monitor (at the dashboard) what is happening. The majority of the horror stories I hear, fall into one of two categories: First, would be the unexpected lockups, and second would be some of the outrageous treatment at the hands of SOME of the service outlets. (Should add that not all of the problems constitute a horror story).

On the unexpected lockups: I'm walking on eggshells here, so as to avoid offending some of my "best customers." Fact is, "unexpected" covers many cases where there probably were substantial clues that something was brewing. We hear lots of stories where the AutoPark warning lamp was blinking, or ON prior to lockup, but "everything seemed to be working so we continued driving." Some folks have fessed up to driving hundreds of miles with the AP lite ON. I'd suggest that the difference in driving hundreds of miles with the AP lite ON, and doing the same distance with a low tire, is in both cases a matter of education. We all know what a low tire means, but we do not all know what the AP warning lite means.

I'm not going to dwell on the service outlet thing. There are some great ones out there, and then there are some of the other kind.

Back to the control systems. This is (my opinion) the fertile ground that may be plowed by Brazel's with their new system, or by owners of the OEM AutoParks. The control systems include the goodies that tell the pumps when to run, and tell the pressure where to go. By far, most of the failures with OEM systems are caused by the control system - - including the famous Rotten Green Switch. Maladjustment of the Gear Shift Lever Position Switch is another common troublemaker, but not in the same class as the RGS percentagewise.

We really are not qualified to talk much about the Brazel system. We've never seen one yet, and know almost nothing about their control system. Maybe one of their guys will jump in here and get us all up to speed. We do understand they have a pretty slick caging device on their actuator, which allows the brake to be released if necessary. There are several ways to cage the OEM hydraulic actuators too, but none are built into the system. That should be a big plus for the Brazel's unit.

For those choosing to stay with the OEM systems: First and foremost, get educated on YOUR version. We have lots of info at the AutoPark Library and are glad to share it. Second, if you have one of the later versions, carry a spare RGS and the few tools it takes to install it. Here's a final serious suggestion - - Learn about the Genie Lamp add-on. For less than 20 bucks worth of parts from Radio Shack, you can build a little three lite warning system that will tell you what the AP system is doing. It can tell you if all is OK, some problems brewing, or lockup is iminent.

Finally, we'd hope that someone from Brazel's can jump in here and explain things from their perspective. I'm sure they have a lot of good info to share.

Sorry about the length of these stories.

oub
__________________
Resident AutoPark Expert
oldusedbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2008, 02:22 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Oemtech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jarrell, TX 76537
Posts: 4,447
Send a message via AIM to Oemtech
As I don't have Auto Park this is very good info to have presented. Enough info to understand the concepts and not to much to really confuse me.

Even with a replacement system available I doubt you will be out of work anytime soon.
__________________
Dale
AKA - Oemy
Oemtech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2008, 08:47 AM   #11
Senior Member
Official iRV2 Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: CENTRALIA, WA
Posts: 1,472
Old Used Bear,

We have two version's the earlier J71 type & the most recent J72. We figure this covers atleast 1996 to the last 2005's & may cover some earlier coaches down to 1992 but I'm not sure just yet. The reason we developed this system is we have seen so many distraught customers being towed in for repair's of thier park brake system. When the system comes on at 60 miles per hour it doesn't take long to overheat the park brake drum and cause other problem's. The original system can be taken care of as you suggest, but we just wanted to develop a system for peace of mind & to eliminate expensive(and most of the time unnecessary) towing bill's.
__________________
Jon Brazel
Ultra RV Products / Brazel's RV Performance
Ultra RV Products is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2008, 09:52 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 274
Hey Mike - - Glad you could respond here.

I didn't know you had built anything for the J72 systems. We've had almost no "action" at all at the AutoPark Library concerning that version. Couple of incidents where someone asked for "just in case" info, but have yet to get one of those panic calls from the side of the road or a rest stop somewhere.

I've always assumed (dangerous?) that Workhorse buys that system as a package from Carlisle - so GM and Workhorse would not be in the design or manufacturing loop - - only the installation. I've also assumed that it is pretty reliable or we'd have more people clamoring for information on troubleshooting and fixing. That's just a sideline observation on my part tho, and maybe there is a lot more going on with the J72 than what I hear about.

As such, I'd sure be interested in your take on that - - have you guys seen or heard of lots of problems with the J72??

I know I don't have to ask the same question about the J71!

We surely do relate to the "peace of mind" factor. I've heard of more than one person who claims to have sold their RV because of bad experiences.

Roger - - aka oldusedbear
__________________
Resident AutoPark Expert
oldusedbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2008, 03:04 PM   #13
iRV2 Marketing
 
DriVer's Avatar
 
Winnebago Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Coastal Campers
Carolina Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Conway, SC
Posts: 23,573
Blog Entries: 70
OUB, It is my understanding that the J72 is a much more simple system with fewer components that can fail. I believe that the gray and green pressure switches were also eliminated as well.

If you download the FREE Chassis Guide from our stickies, it goes into quite a bit of detail regarding both the J71 and the J72.
__________________
03 Adventurer 38G, Workhorse W22
F&R Track Bars, Safety+ , Ultrapower, Taylor Extremes, SGII
TST 507, Blue Ox, SMI, Koni FSD, CrossFire
RV/MH Hall of Fame - Lifetime Member
DriVer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2008, 05:58 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 274
I've got the descriptive stuff OK, but what we'd really like is info on their "analog computer" black box that tells the system what to do.

In a very simple sense, the systems have several similarities, but when you look at the hardware the pieces are TOTALLY different. Disc brake instead of drum, hydraulic lines instead of cables, etc. A very "clean" looking system when compared to the J71.

I would guess without knowing, that Carlisle uses these components in systems they sell to people other than Workhorse. Maybe someone here can comment on that.
__________________
Resident AutoPark Expert
oldusedbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brake Question/OldUsedBear&Other Members gsdog Workhorse and Chevrolet Chassis Motorhome Forum 6 01-10-2009 04:14 PM
Profile Message jk_and_dog New Member Check-In 7 03-08-2007 02:18 PM
A Message from Our Troops apackof2 Military / Veteran RVing 5 11-03-2006 04:06 AM
PM message? jcar6109 Winnebago Industries Owner's Forum 3 11-01-2006 10:09 AM
Message for Derek Bob Dickinson Southeast Region 4 08-18-2005 01:27 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.