No brake problems

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by max49

It just seems like the atmosphere here is trying to go back to 'blame the owner' and make the customer feel like it must be their fault.

Max nobody is trying to blame the owner but in some cases owners need to take ownership of some of these issues that they could have prevented if they knew how to do it.

My bet is that most WH owners know by now, to baby their brakes and don't use them unless they have to.

No and Yes on this statement. Don't baby your brakes when you use them however stay out of the brake pedal as much as possible. That I expect is what you are meaning to say. There's nothing about babying brakes on this board in fact that could lead to problems.

If the caliper isn't releasing, the brakes are going to get hot in a hurry. I believe there has only been a few threads where people said their pedal went to the floor. This could have been caused from boiling brake fluid as a reaction to the sticking calipers. It seems that the boiling may have been put off for another minutes or so with new brake fluid, but the damaging heat would still be damaging the pads, rotors and sensors, even before the brake fluid boils.

... and Max as much as this might surprise you everything that you just wrote in the last quote "might" have been prevented if there wasn't any water in the brake fluid. I've got new brakes at this point and I'm not going to wait for them to go bad. I'm going to install my Oemy Speed Bleeders and flush my system "before" I have any problems. Guaranteed, if I run 100% brake fluid I do not expect to have any brake problems. If I do ya'll will be the first to know that changing brake fluid well before a failure occurred didn't work out. Have a good one Max! Must be cold up in CO right now ....

[Bob (WA0MQE)]

Isn't the problem with the brakes caused from swelling of the piston? Is this is the case then all the lubing in the world isn't going to prevent the brake failure, since the pins aren't the problem.

Again, isn't the piston swelling been determined by Bosch to be the cause?

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by Bob (WA0MQE)

Again, isn't the piston swelling been determined by Bosch to be the cause?

Bob, Yes it is. Once that has been established how is that possible that the piston would just simply swell on its own? The answer is clear however it may not be the only reason but what appears to be the primary cause is water being absorbed by the phenolic material.

The cause is the moisture in the fluid I expect and the effect is that the piston swells.

[Max Hubrich]

Bob--

I personally think the slide pins got the blame initially, as did the brake bell crank without a zerk grease fitting, for overheating calipers.

My theory is that when the pistons got stuck in their bore and fried the brake pads, rotors, ABS sensors, etc the calipers got so hot that the slide pin lubricant got fried also at that time. When the affected units were disassembled here was a "new found cause" for the problem. At this point "was it the chicken or the egg that came first?"

I certainly don't think it hurts to check slide pin lubrication for the do it yourselfer. It only takes a little time and a few bucks for the lubricant. It sure gives you a "warm fuzzy" that you know it was done and done properly

I also know all about theories-----

[jdsr]

Originally Posted by DriVer

You lubed your pins after the first failure ..... this is exactly what speed racer and I have been talking about. Getting around to inspections and PM after the onset of symptoms is largely ineffective.

Doing PM way "before" the first failure would very likely have prevented the 1st, 2nd and 3rd failures. The 2nd and 3rd failures in my opinion were extensions of the 1st and were only a progression not new separate incidents. Preventing the 1st would have been key. But hey, I know it's not your fault.

So I guess based on your OPINION if we have a brake failure there' no need to do anything else, dont fix and dont do this so called maintance. The only fix is to junk it because after a failure its to late. Your opinion of doing pm's before failures would of prevented failures is bunk. I had less than 12,000 miles and only a few months out of warr so what pm did I miss to cause my failures. My brakes were inspected and my pins relubed by a wh shop( which said my pins were fine but lubed them anyway.) There is nothing in my manual that states to change the brake fluid and as of 6 months ago when I called wh and asked they said they dont have any data to recommend changing fluid and if it was needed it would be in the manual. If folks would go back and read some of your responces to these brake problems about 2 1/2 to 3 years ago your reasons were, no zerk fittings, we must be riding the brakes, bad drivers, dont use our mh's enough, dont know how to drive in the mountains or we just dont know how to drive period, we were to harsh on our brakes in city driving, etc, etc. Now its the brake fluid. That seems to be sticking right now but NHTSA has spoken and its none of the above, its the calipers. And your right, its not my fault. I am a professional driver, therefor I know how to drive.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by jdsr

So I guess based on your OPINION if we have a brake failure there' no need to do anything else, dont fix and dont do this so called maintance.

Mike, You are not making any sense at all. I didn't offer an opinion. Your just arguing with me is all. I wrote, "Getting around to inspections and PM after the onset of symptoms is largely ineffective." I don't see that as an opinion. That's a fact and I can testify to that on a stack of yellow page directories.

If anyone accomplishes PM on their vehicle "before" a problem presents that why they call it preventative maintenance. The key word is "preventative." Anything after preventative is reactionary service. If one can keep problems from happening to begin with there's no need to get into a repair routine. Once the repairs begin and unless you fix everything all at once, you're going to be piece mealing into a long term relationship with a problem. If you want to rule this out try not changing your motor oil until the bearings start coming out of he bottom of the oil pan. Changing your motor oil is good PM if it is accomplished in a timely manner.

Like you I am only beginning to find out how caustic water damage is to our hydraulic systems and once it starts it's like a cancer, it spreads throughout the system. You might fix 1 caliper on one day and two days later it's possible that 1 of the other 3 might fail. In your defense there was no crystal ball at the time that would have suggested to you that your failures would be cascading.

There is nothing in my manual that states to change the brake fluid and as of 6 months ago when I called wh and asked they said they dont have any data to recommend changing fluid and if it was needed it would be in the manual.

Agreed however there was also nothing in the Homeland Security Manual about terrorists flying a plane into the World Trade Center but since 911 those manuals have been re-written. That was then this is now. We are in a post NHTSA campaign era. Things change.

If you don't accept the science that a number of us have presented here over the years about brake fluid, I don't know how calling Workhorse helps you make a decision not to pursue the strategy that so many of us here have championed. Beginning with the 2009 Chassis Guide I have seen that a brake fluid change recommendation is published and I believe they quote 2 years.

In regard to your attempt to defame what I have been speaking to in regards to what's happening to our brakes I stand by my comments and I will not disagree or digress from any of the points you stated. I'm not going to change my message now. That said, not all of these causes or remedies pertain to all 48,000 owners on the road but some of them apply to many of them however I take no pride in saying that I copyrighted all of those items. Many voices here contributed to those points.

It has always been about brake fluid, as far as I can tell. DOT3 hasn't changed its specifications for decades and it continues to do now what it always has. It soaks up water, reduces the efficiency of he brake fluid by reducing the boiling point of the fluid which causes the brake pedal to fade into the floor board. On that you can depend. We are just now hearing that NHTSA has determined that it also gets absorbed into the phenolic. That was news to me and it simply proves that what everyone has been saying about brake fluid is true. Keep the water out of the fluid and your brakes should deliver good service.

Finding a work around for the long term effects of sitting and collecting water is the challenge at the moment which I am sure that Bosch will overcome. After the campaign is resolved if an owner goes back to disregarding PM on their brakes we'll be walking down this slippery slope again.

[George Z]

This discussion seems to be getting personal and very picky. It does not make for informative and enjoyable reading

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by George Z

This discussion seems to be getting personal and very picky. It does not make for informative and enjoyable reading

I'm trying my best to provide good stuff to read .....

[Ron & Dee]

Someone explain this?

I had a 1993 Brave for eight years, never had any brake problems, never changed the brake fluid, never had any brake failures.

So far with my 2002 Adventurer I have had for 5+ years, I have had two brake failures.

I live in the same environment with both motor homes, drive in the same condition, drive in the same terrain.

Thanks,

Ron

[jdsr]

Originally Posted by Ron & Dee

Someone explain this?

I had a 1993 Brave for eight years, never had any brake problems, never changed the brake fluid, never had any brake failures.

So far with my 2002 Adventurer I have had for 5+ years, I have had two brake failures.

I live in the same environment with both motor homes, drive in the same condition, drive in the same terrain.

Thanks,

Ron

thank you, I've been driving (with a dl) for 40 years, every kind of veh you can think of and never "once" changed my brake fluid except when we did brake work, NOT ONCE. And if most people are honest I believe they would say the same. Some of these veh I owned for over 10 years. The only point Im making is if you want to change your fluid every day, go for it. Its easy and cheap. But for anyone to say its the cause and cure all for wh's brake problem is wrong.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by Ron & Dee

Someone explain this?

Ron, The calipers are different I expect.

I guess it's like the difference between a Tiger Tank and a Sherman. One will work forever regardless of dirt and the other will stop if it gets a little dirt in the wrong place.

It still doesn't dismiss your point of going extended periods of time without changing the fluid A vs B. Like you, this is the basis of Max's point as well where he states that he has never heard of changing brake fluid on a vehicle. Ya just can't dismiss people's experiences out of hand that easily.

Ron, Honestly after 8 years, I wouldn't have wanted to see the results of a test on the brake fluid in the Brave.

[jdsr]

Originally Posted by DriVer

Mike, You are not making any sense at all. I didn't offer an opinion. Your just arguing with me is all. I wrote, "Getting around to inspections and PM after the onset of symptoms is largely ineffective." I don't see that as an opinion. That's a fact and I can testify to that on a stack of yellow page directories.

Im not mike but thats ok. I will keep this short. IF the cause and cure was just changing the fluid do you think we would be getting new calipers on over 51,000 veh. I mean seriously.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by jdsr

Im not mike but thats ok. I will keep this short. IF the cause and cure was just changing the fluid do you think we would be getting new calipers on over 51,000 veh. I mean seriously.

Mike, What would you propose that the problem is?

Quite honestly they are not going to change 200,000 calipers because of brake fluid. Technical writers are just sayin' that if you keep your fluid clean form the onset of your ownership you should be able to control your own destiny. Guys like myself, Oemy and others tend to agree with that assessment.

In a post that was offered way back in July 2009 at the Greenville Rally they also alluded to the fact that there were some machining anomalies where some pistons were tighter than others. That said why did I get the loose pistons? I just can't figure it. 65,000 miles and 6 years of ownership without a caliper seizure. I do have to admit that I didn't change my brake fluid all that often either but I guess that I had the miles on my side.

[jdsr]

Originally Posted by DriVer

Mike, What would you propose that the problem is?

Quite honestly they are not going to change 200,000 calipers because of brake fluid. Technical writers are just sayin' that if you keep your fluid clean form the onset of your ownership you should be able to control your own destiny. Guys like myself, Oemy and others tend to agree with that assessment.

In a post that was offered way back in July 2009 at the Greenville Rally they also alluded to the fact that there were some machining anomalies where some pistons were tighter than others. That said why did I get the loose pistons? I just can't figure it. 65,000 miles and 6 years of ownership without a caliper seizure. I do have to admit that I didn't change my brake fluid all that often either but I guess that I had the miles on my side.

Tom, your statement,"quite honestly they are not going to change 200,000 calipers because of brake fluid" is my point. Thank you. Can you produce one expert that would put in writing that changing the brake fluid is the CAUSE AND CURE of the wh brake problem.