There's dealers that don't take trade-in's?

[max49]

Unless it was icy, snowy or otherwise pretty slippery, I doubt my MH could lock up a tire. Obviously I'll never try unless I have to but I just don't think it could.
There fore ABS should not come into play unless it might be helpful.
Can you guys lock up a tire on dry pavement?

[Tom N]

Originally posted by max49:
Unless it was icy, snowy or otherwise pretty slippery, I doubt my MH could lock up a tire. Obviously I'll never try unless I have to but I just don't think it could.

Can you guys lock up a tire on dry pavement?

This subject thread certainly has strayed.

I have never locked up my brakes but 5 years ago driving south on I-95 in SC or GA a gas motorhome w/toad was coming up the on ramp. Traffic was light and I slowed slightly to let him merge. A motorcycle had just past me and was about a 1/4 mile ahead of me. There was an overpass just past the interchange and the gas motorhome was trying to merge in front of me and looked like he had it floored to get up to speed. The overpass limited visibility down the highway. He had just pulled in front of me when a car in front of him forced the motorcycle into the median. One or two cars had already stopped and both lanes were blocked. The merging gas motorhome went from full throttle to full brakes. Pavement was dry. There was smoke rolling off all 6 motorhome tires and all 4 of his toad tires! With all the smoke it looked like a stunt for a movie. His motorhome probably was too old for ABS. He hit the berm on the right or he would have rear ended a stopped car. Luckily I had lots of room between him and me but I had to stop quickly. I did not have to lock up my brakes and I was driving my old 1994 gas Vectra.

[FLYTYER]

Do the large delivery trucks and 18 wheelers have ABS?

[DriVer]

Originally posted by FLYTYER:
Do the large delivery trucks and 18 wheelers have ABS?

Ted, If they are Workhorse Commercial Chassis, yes they do have ABS. Recent 18W trucks indeed have ABS as well.

The average length of time it takes to stop an 18 wheeler is 40% greater than that of an automobile. These measurements are dependent on the weight of the truck's load, whether they are bobtailing, road conditions, weather conditions and other factors. Trucks have 10 brakes.

The Department of Transportation requires that ABS be on:

<LI> Air-braked truck tractors built on or after March 1, 1997.
<LI> Other air-braked vehicles (trucks, buses, trailers and converter dollies) built on or after March 1, 1998.
<LI> Hydraulically-braked trucks and buses with a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 lbs. or more built on or after March 1, 1999.

[UltraClassicElectraGlide]

Originally posted by max49:
Unless it was icy, snowy or otherwise pretty slippery, I doubt my MH could lock up a tire. Obviously I'll never try unless I have to but I just don't think it could.
There fore ABS should not come into play unless it might be helpful.
Can you guys lock up a tire on dry pavement?

i'd say its true that abs comes mostly in to play on slcik roads but still works on dry. the key point is when drivers do a panic stop mostly when something happens that wasnt expected and they hit the pedal so hard it can lock up a wheel or two. some trucks do have abs (some motorcycles to) and many safety features on cars can be turned off-- merccedes has had abs for many many years and you can;t turn it off-- im sure theare is a reson for it and its not because the driver can usually outdrive abs

when the abs is kickin in you feel a pulse in the pedal ive had it kick in a few times and i dont think the wheels were gonna lock up but the computer makes sure that it dont no matter what i guess i dont see the point of unhooking a safety system unless it was proven to be unreilable and than id want to fix it not unhook it

[John-D]

Well. Workhorse Motor homes are preceived as having problems and I often read about 'em here... and I read about some with Fords and Freightliner and.. Well you get the idea, it don't matter. Frankly I drive a workhorse and I will give you the list of issues which Workhorse has fixed.

1: Fule rail retainer clip (Recall, no problem, no damage, and the cost to me was $0.00, I did not even pay for gas to drive the rig to the service center as.. Well, I went there for an oil change and had 'em do the recall at the same time)

2: Air conditioner expansion valve.. Not sure it's a workhorse supplied part, DAMON replace it, again I was there for other reasons.

3: Dash cluster.. Same as 2

Total money spent by me due to Workhorse issues on my 2005 Intruder: $0.00, Total miles driven to obtain service :Zero. Total inconvience to me: Zero Satisfaction with Workhorse product I drive: 100%

Of course.. that's my rig

Now as for the rest of the house... The issue that took me to the workhorse authorized service center was routine maintenance so that is nothign

The one that took me to Damon was the "Self Removing Windshield Option" That is a big deal but that's not a workorse issue

Oh I had one more issue, a switch faild.. I did drive 4 miles for that one, Workhorse fixed it so change miles drive to Eight About 1 gallon of gas

[Richard 34A]

[quote=dieselclacker;20148]

Originally posted by Richard 34A:

I bet engineers love it when the the layperson over-rides safety features that they spend millions of dollars perfecting... ABS is far only being necessary on ice or snow.


Would you care to expound on the above statement?

Dieselclacker

Sure; manufacturers spend ten's of thousand's of dollars doing research and development of safety equipment and then a consumer disables it.

ABS has been around for many, many years and has been tested in car magazines until it's been beat to death and articles can be found at Car and Driver, Road and Track, Automobile Magazine, etc. and all come away with plenty of safety reasons why ABS is there in the first place and shouldn't be tampered with. Of course, there's always some one out there that knows more than the engineers and test drivers and figures that it's safer to disconnect it. Since airbags can 'go off unexpectedly' I'm sure these same people disconnect those too...

I wonder how the insurnace industry views safety items that are disconnected... I know that ABS vehicles get an insurance discount; must be some reason for that...

[Richard 34A]

Originally Posted by DriVer

From that day till this I am a firm believer that ABS has a place in modern vehicle construction.

I once went to a ride and drive, when ABS was first coming to vehicles to the masses. We got to go out on a track and beat the snot out of vehicles with and without ABS, on dry and wet conditions. I remember my first runs, applying full brake pressure at 65 mph, repeatedly. My first thought was that the vehicle was taking longer to stop than without the ABS... turned out that sensation was false, and the professionals proved it over and over. I also remember jumping out of the vehicle to change seats and was shocked to see all four rotors glowing red and smoking big time... all with no drama when heavy braking to a complete stop.

We even did head-to-head competetions, with some average-joe drivers convinced that time after time they could beat the ABS stopping distinces... didn't happen, except with the professional race drivers, guys that turn thousands of miles at the tracks, knowing how to push vehicles to the most upper-limits day in and day out... one of the funnest tests was driving past multiple vehicles and one of them would pull out in front of you; even though you knew one was going to do it, you didn't know when or which one. The test showed that people would over-apply the brakes, grip the steering wheel, and hope for the best, resulting in a semi-controlled skid...

That day showed me that most people, no matter how good a driver they think they are, were beat out time after time by a computer in the braking system... ABS works best when people are lulled into a false sense of security at the wheel, forgetting to expect 'the unexpected' just around the bend.

Another thing that was addressed was the reaction time of 21 year old, 30 year-olds, 40 year-olds, etc. The testing showed that as we get older, we only 'think' we have the reaction time as in our younger days and then to over-react when braking. Part of the tests included drag-racing slot cars, where our reaction time was timed against teenagers. Man! It wasn't even a contest... even when you thought you got a great start, the clock-timers told the tale and youth almost always prevailed...

As with anything, there's always two sides; for those that want to disable the ABS, it's your vehicle and that's your choice, just don't tell your insurnace agent.

[dieselclacker]

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/ncsa/pdf/abs_rn.pdf

This thread was originally about motorhomes stopping on dry roads. The above link is from NHTSA, and is mostly about passenger cars. Seems they do not agree with your findings, nor do I for that matter.

Dieselclacker

[RVDude]

I wonder if there is a newer NHSTA report? This one is from 1995 and does end with the statement that more research is clearly needed.

Since 1995, ABS systems have significantly evolved and more importantly so has the general populous' ability to properly use them - remember the old don't pump them issues when they first came out. So, I wonder if a newer and more complete study would yield more conclusive and meaningful results?

The insurance company's reduced rates for ABS clearly indicate there is a risk reduction in having them. Insurance companies truly have the comprehensive statsitics to prove it AND the business incentive to not give a discount if the statistics prove otherwise.

[dieselclacker]

Originally Posted by RVDude

I wonder if there is a newer NHSTA report? This one is from 1995 and does end with the statement that more research is clearly needed.

Since 1995, ABS systems have significantly evolved and more importantly so has the general populous' ability to properly use them - remember the old don't pump them issues when they first came out. So, I wonder if a newer and more complete study would yield more conclusive and meaningful results?

The insurance company's reduced rates for ABS clearly indicate there is a risk reduction in having them. Insurance companies truly have the comprehensive statsitics to prove it AND the business incentive to not give a discount if the statistics prove otherwise.

I have AAA insurance, Allstate insurance, and Progressive insurance on my various vehicles, and after reviewing, I find no provisions on either of them for reduced rates for ABS equipped vehicles. For anti-theft devices, disabling ignition devices, burgler alarms yes, but I see nothing for ABS.
Technology no doubt has changed on ABS since its inception, but the principle of operation, pulsating of the hydraulic force acting on the brake calipers has not. A skidding wheel does stop a vehicle faster on a DRY surface than one that is prevented from skidding by pulsating the application force.This is not rocket science, but a fact of physics, friction acting on a moving object. A skidding wheel is not as steerable as one that is rolling, BUT you do not always need to steer in order to keep from hitting an obstacle. I am not down playing the importance of ABS on wet or icy roads, IMHO they are great under these conditions. Most of my driving is on dry roads, and I choose not to have the ABS system enabled on my motorhome under these conditions. I am also NOT suggesting than anyone disable the ABS on thier vehicle.

Dieselclacker

[RVDude]

diesel - I should have put a note that in the old days when ABS first came out there were provisions in your insurance because not all cars had ABS. Kind of like when not all cars had seat/shoulder belts and you had a separate discount for those called out if you had them. Neither of these discounts are called out separately today since all cars have ABS and seat/shoulder belts. Sorry about not making that clear.

Your rocket science and physics are grossly in error. A skidding object has a significantly lower coefficient of friction than a non skidding object. Look up kinetic/dynamic friction (skidding) vs static friction (non-skidding). A simple example is to place a flat object on a board and then lift one end of the board until the object just starts to move (exceeding it's static friction). Keeping the board at the same height that initiated motion you'll see the object accelerate in speed (accelerate is the key here) indicating less friction while in motion (skidding). You need to lower the board slightly to keep the object at a constant speed - again showing dynamic (skidding) friction is significantly less than the static friction (the friction before the object moved).

Hence, a non skidding tire/road interface being at higher static frictional coefficients has far greater stopping power than a skidding tire/road interface at the lower dynamic friction coefficients. It may not intuitively seem so, but it is physics and fact.

It is also a fact that a computer can control the braking of a wheel far more precisely and rapidly than any human can. As such a computer can brake a wheel right up to but never exceed its coefficient of static friction - thus delivering the highest level of friction attainable (a non skidding wheel). Highly skilled race drivers can only come real close. A computer, unlike a human, can also control the brakes at hundreds of times per second and thus even account for exceedingly subtle changes in road surface, pebbles, and even the varying vehicle weight distribution as the vehicle screams to a stop. An ABS computer can account for the ever changing "traction" (look up "traction" which is not to be confused with "friction") the tire/road interface will see over the varying road conditions, weight changes and even tire heating as the vehicle stops.

Thus the computer, unlike a human, ensures that the brakes are applied right up to the tire/road static friction threshold for every fraction of every second they are applied. Only an ABS computer can do that.

[Richard 34A]

Originally Posted by dieselclacker

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/ncsa/pdf/abs_rn.pdf

This thread was originally about motorhomes stopping on dry roads. The above link is from NHTSA, and is mostly about passenger cars. Seems they do not agree with your findings, nor do I for that matter.

Dieselclacker

I've done a lot of search in years past, and can find plenty of information that refutes your entire view. Anyone can do the same research and can choose to believe whatever information and statisitcs they want: for me, I'll take the the research and development of the engineer teams of Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, SAAB, Porsche, Generall Motors, Ford, well, you get the idea, over the opinion of someone at an Internet forum.

Anyone who truely belives that disabeling a major safety device that is built into millions of vehicles is a good thing, well, the Earth used to be 'flat' too.

[ron55]

I don't know about your chassis but mine is a 2004 and it's mostly made up from old leftover gm parts.
I know from experience that early gm abs had some real problems.
I had real world braking test on my rv and the non abs stops, really stops much shorter than abs