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BLE373 · 07-31-2017, 07:56 AM

Had the tow package installed by Camping World of Lakewood NJ on our 2014 MKX. Everything seemed fine until first stop on maiden voyage. No Brake lights and no charging on the toad.

Got out the meter at the rest area and went over the rear plug on the 2007 Bounder. Two pins are dead the top right charging pin and the bottom right brake pin.

Eyeballed wiring but can't find a problem.

\Anyone experience this before us? Where would you look to even begin?

We got home OK, but can't see CW solving this problem. It seem it is our rig is the culprit.

Arch Hoagland · 07-31-2017, 04:07 PM

Did EVERYTHING work correctly when you picked it up?

70ChevelleSS · 07-31-2017, 05:50 PM

Our 2003 Winnebago had a 7 pin trailer connector and brake controller installed. We bought it used and previous owner said he never towed anything. After the brake/turn signal fuse kept blowing I looked into it. Found they had swapped the ground to the toad with the brake light wire and another wire was in the wrong location in the 7 pin trailer connector. You may want to check out the connector with a meter to see if they got things right. On ours all the hot wires are yellow and any labels were long gone so it took awhile to short it out.

BLE373 · 07-31-2017, 07:47 PM

Yes. We checked the brakes at CW on pickup. All worked correctly.
Does anyone know there a towing package fuse placement on the W22 that would have a junction for trouble shooting?

70ChevelleSS · 08-02-2017, 06:54 AM

I think you'll need to check with Fleetwood about the wiring. The wiring to our trailer connector, except for the brake controller, was installed by Winnebago, not Workhorse. It appears the brake controller was added by the dealer because it's a separate cable not bundled or run with wiring for the lights.

BLE373 · 08-03-2017, 06:42 AM

Well, we are in the process of running two new wires front to back for charge and brake. The brake wire direct from the pedal switch. The #10 charge wire direct from battery with 30 amp fuse at source. Not sure whether to fuse the brake wire or what size fuse to use on that #14 wire.

Once we have the receptacle corrected and tested good we will couple the toad and trouble shoot that. It will be great not to have to disconnect the toad batt.

The toad is equipped with SMI Stay-in Play. The tech at SMI was very helpful, but until we have a correctly wired receptacle we are not 100% sure where the problem is. The plan is to couple up then call SMI for a quick trouble shoot conversation.

Arizona in 30 days.

Anyone suggest a route from central Jersey?

BLE373 · 08-14-2017, 02:14 PM

Update:
Coupled up the coach and the toad. No brakes. Called SMI and trouble shot the wiring. The toad is correct. The problem is in the coach.

The coach has separated the brake lights from the turn signal. Rear upper amber lights are directionals. Lower red tail lights are brake and running.
\
SMI system works from the combined brake turn signal from the two left right wires. Those wires are cold on our unit when braking.

SMI says that it won't work with our coach.

l1v3fr33ord1 · 08-14-2017, 06:04 PM

BLE373-

According to the owner's manual, page 05-4, for your coach (2007 Bounder), the trailer hitch connector is wired in the standard way, meaning the turn and stop signals are combined on their pins. The pinout matches that at this link, "Vehicle Side 7-Way/7-Way RV Standard," which is:

Position eTrailer Diagram (Bounder Manual)

1 o'clock: 12V Power (Battery Charge)
3 o'clock: Right Turn & Stop (Right Turn/Stop)
5 o'clock: Brake Controller Output (Electric Brake)
7 o'clock: Ground (Ground)
9 o'clock: Left Turn & Stop (Left Turn/Stop)
11 o'clock: Tail & Running Lights (Tail/Clearance)

The manual could be in error. Assuming it's not, then let's review your posts.

Post #1:

Quote:

Got out the meter at the rest area and went over the rear plug on the 2007 Bounder. Two pins are dead the top right charging pin and the bottom right brake pin.

a) OK, the charge line is dead, and should not be (if you paid to have it live). But, did you test it with the engine running? It could be ignition-switched.

b) The brake pin should be dead. That pin is supposed to be the output of a trailer electric brake controller. It should not be live when you tow a vehicle.

Same post #1:

Quote:

No Brake lights and no charging on the toad.

a) The no toad charging is consistent with no power on the pin. Again, test with the engine running.

b) Ah, the nub of the problem? Confirm that the toad brake lights are out when the coach's brake lights are on, and that the turn lights match (or not). I frequently use the hazard flasher to test, as it flashes everything.

Post #6:

Quote:

Well, we are in the process of running two new wires front to back for charge and brake. The brake wire direct from the pedal switch.

a) Maybe CW didn't run a charge line, maybe they did. Water over the dam.

b) Incorrect approach on the brake signal. The brake signal must arrive at the hitch connector combined with the turn signal, not on its own wire.

Post #7:

Quote:

The coach has separated the brake lights from the turn signal. Rear upper amber lights are directionals. Lower red tail lights are brake and running.
\
SMI system works from the combined brake turn signal from the two left right wires. Those wires are cold on our unit when braking.

SMI says that it won't work with our coach.

Yes. As above: "The brake signal must arrive at the hitch connector combined with the turn signal, not on its own wire."

Where to go from here?

1) There's obviously a place where turn and stop signals are separate, because your front turn signals don't go on with the brakes.
2) There's obviously a place where the turn and stop signals are combined, as that's needed for the hitch connector.

The place where both happen on almost every gas coach is at the turn signal switch on the steering column. The coach maker has the option of feeding one or both of the separate or combined signals to the rear.

If the coach maker feeds only the separate to the rear, then he or an installer must install a turn/stop combiner electronics unit to put them together. Perhaps your coach has one of those. It would be within a few feet of the hitch connector. Small box, about 3 x 5 x 0.75 inches.

If the coach maker feeds both to the rear, then he uses the separate for the coach and the combined for the hitch connector, and you may have a broken wire or something funky in the turn signal switch.

If the coach maker feeds only the combined to the rear, then you may have a broken wire.

Before you do anything else, though, put on the hazard flashers and see if you get signal at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock pins. Then, have someone mash the brakes and see if you get signal.

BLE373 · 08-15-2017, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by l1v3fr33ord1

BLE373-

According to the owner's manual, page 05-4, for your coach (2007 Bounder), the trailer hitch connector is wired in the standard way, meaning the turn and stop signals are combined on their pins. The pinout matches that at this link, "Vehicle Side 7-Way/7-Way RV Standard," which is:

Position eTrailer Diagram (Bounder Manual)

1 o'clock: 12V Power (Battery Charge)
3 o'clock: Right Turn & Stop (Right Turn/Stop)
5 o'clock: Brake Controller Output (Electric Brake)
7 o'clock: Ground (Ground)
9 o'clock: Left Turn & Stop (Left Turn/Stop)
11 o'clock: Tail & Running Lights (Tail/Clearance)

The manual could be in error. Assuming it's not, then let's review your posts.

Post #1:

a) OK, the charge line is dead, and should not be (if you paid to have it live). But, did you test it with the engine running? It could be ignition-switched.

b) The brake pin should be dead. That pin is supposed to be the output of a trailer electric brake controller. It should not be live when you tow a vehicle.

Same post #1:

a) The no toad charging is consistent with no power on the pin. Again, test with the engine running.

b) Ah, the nub of the problem? Confirm that the toad brake lights are out when the coach's brake lights are on, and that the turn lights match (or not). I frequently use the hazard flasher to test, as it flashes everything.

Post #6:

a) Maybe CW didn't run a charge line, maybe they did. Water over the dam.

b) Incorrect approach on the brake signal. The brake signal must arrive at the hitch connector combined with the turn signal, not on its own wire.

Post #7:

Yes. As above: "The brake signal must arrive at the hitch connector combined with the turn signal, not on its own wire."

Where to go from here?

1) There's obviously a place where turn and stop signals are separate, because your front turn signals don't go on with the brakes.
2) There's obviously a place where the turn and stop signals are combined, as that's needed for the hitch connector.

The place where both happen on almost every gas coach is at the turn signal switch on the steering column. The coach maker has the option of feeding one or both of the separate or combined signals to the rear.

If the coach maker feeds only the separate to the rear, then he or an installer must install a turn/stop combiner electronics unit to put them together. Perhaps your coach has one of those. It would be within a few feet of the hitch connector. Small box, about 3 x 5 x 0.75 inches.

If the coach maker feeds both to the rear, then he uses the separate for the coach and the combined for the hitch connector, and you may have a broken wire or something funky in the turn signal switch.

If the coach maker feeds only the combined to the rear, then you may have a broken wire.

Before you do anything else, though, put on the hazard flashers and see if you get signal at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock pins. Then, have someone mash the brakes and see if you get signal.

So we called Fleetwood and the sent schematic wiring for rear of our coach by serial. Separate wiring for directionals is the problem. No combined signal. Signal convertor not present.

Solution: Ordered signal convertor.

Who knew?????

Curses to the tech to OKed us for travel without brakes.

Much wiser now.

Thank you for great help diagnosing this problem. Wiring (AC/DC) was not our specialty.

l1v3fr33ord1 · 08-15-2017, 08:05 AM

BLE373-

I just saw the above post. You are welcome. Consider the information below "extra."

If you could share the schematic Fleetwood sent, it would be useful to put in my "folder" for future use. If you don't want to post it here, send me a private message and I'll forward my e-mail address so you can mail the schematic to me that way.

I'm curious, though- how does Fleetwood, in its owner's manual, claim to provide turn/stop signals on the correct pins and now implies that it doesn't?

Mark

----- "Extra Information" below -----

Here is a wiring diagram set for a 2004 Workhorse W22 chassis. Comparison with another one I have for a 2001 indicates few significant differences on the sheets that cover "Exterior Lighting" (sheets 38 through 40).

Looking at sheet 40, zone 9-F, the brake signal goes through an in-line connector, which is a short jumper. the drawing labels the jumper thusly: "INLINE CONNECTOR - PROVISION FOR SEPARATE STOP LAMP." It terminates in connectors C218 and C219, and is in the instrument panel area, somewhere near the turn signal switch. From this jumper, the brake signal goes to the turn signal switch, sheet 38, Zone E-6. It is here that the brake signal is added to the turn signal to create the turn/stop signals. If the jumper was disconnected, the turn/stop wires would only have the turn signal- no brake signal.

Note that the diagram set does not contain any reference to a trailer hitch connector wiring. I believe that means the coach builder supplies the connector and draws its wiring from wherever necessary.

There are only a few ways to wire this. If I had to guess, Fleetwood

1) removed the jumper
2) used the turn signal leads to power the coach rear turn lamps
3) used the third-brake light lead (sheet 40, zone H-4) to power the coach brake lamps
4) installed a 3-to-2 converter to power the hitch connector, as I mentioned in my prior post

If this is the case, then either the brake wire has come off of the converter, or the converter has failed.

Alternatively, Fleetwood could have:

1) left the jumper in place
2) connected a 2-to-3 converter to power the coach rear turn lamps and the coach brake lamps, or
3) used the third-brake light lead (sheet 40, zone H-4) to power the coach brake lamps
4) used the turn signal leads to power the hitch connector

In this case, either the brake signal wire to the turn signal switch has failed, or the turn signal is faulty.

Tracing the wires upstream from the hitch connector could reveal the source of the problem.

l1v3fr33ord1 · 08-15-2017, 04:59 PM

"BLE373" received the following diagram sets from Fleetwood, which he has asked me to post on his behalf:

BLE373 · 08-17-2017, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by l1v3fr33ord1

"BLE373" received the following diagram sets from Fleetwood, which he has asked me to post on his behalf:

Mark,
Finished the installation of a converter. Tested and it works like a charm. Finally.
Thanks again helping.
Richard & Violet

l1v3fr33ord1 · 08-17-2017, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLE373

Mark,
Finished the installation of a converter. Tested and it works like a charm. Finally.
Thanks again helping.
Richard & Violet

Richard-

Excellent. I like it when a system works as it should. Happy to have helped.

Anyone Else Happening Upon This Thread-

Here's the last of the diagram sets Richard got from Fleetwood. The interesting detail is on sheet 4: "BRAKE/TURN SIGNAL WIRE SEPARATION DETAIL." It shows the jumper mentioned in post #10.

Fleetwood did not install a converter in Richard's Bounder, so it was wired as shown in sheet 3 of the "Trailer Hitch Wiring" diagram, i.e., separate turn and stop signals at the hitch connector. This is "non-standard."

If you have a Workhorse-based coach and come upon the same issue, you could hunt down that jumper and reconnect it, as a test, before adding a converter. I'm thinking that except for turning the coach turn signals into turn/stop lights, it might make the hitch connections OK, without a converter.