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Old 01-26-2010, 09:48 PM   #1
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What Does 7 Year Old Brake Fluid Look Like?

This past week I accomplished my January maintenance schedule, lube, oil and filter and this time I changed my brake fluid. I used NAPA 10W-30 oil, a NAPA 1060 Gold Filter and Valvoline High Temperature grease.


I have recovered what appears to be about 2.5L of brake fluid

Since my son was around to help me with the LOF, I went to WalMart* and bought 4 quarts of Prestone DOT3 Brake Fluid. Departing the Walmart* and going home I recall per Oemy that we needed a turkey baster and I was determined to find one however finding one in the off Holidays wasn't at all possible. I wanted to go to the Dollar store or something like that and buy an inexpensive one and then not feel guilty about throwing it away. Well no such luck. We did take the time to stop at the Auto Zone and pick up a 3ft piece of 1/4" ID black hose.


This is a closeup of the 3rd bottle from L to R of the sediment in the bottom of the container. Even in this dark of fluid you have no trouble making it out.

When we got back to the ranch I looked around for a solution to draw fluid out of the Hydro-Max and I found it sitting right on my shelf in the garage. A while back I obtained a vacuum pump from Blackstone which I was unable to use. The draw tube will not go down the dip stick tube because it's about 1/16th of inch too wide. The tube only goes down so far and it gets hung up on a land or ring inside the tube and goes no further. Using the draw rod and pulling it back, it drew the brake fluid up from the master cylinder and into the sample bottle. It was time consuming but one bottle at a time got the job done. It was very frustrating that the vacuum pump didn't work as advertised for my engine oil but I kept the pump anyway.


This is some what more transparent fluid however the contamination in the bottom of the bottle is prominent.

After filling an entire 2 liter bottle (full dark battle) and beginning another one, the booster was finally vacuumed dry. It was indeed essential to draw all the old fluid out since it would have had to be flushed out of the bleeders and would more than likely have used way much more fluid than the 4 quarts I had.


This is a closeup of the debris that separated out of the fluid.

We began on the left rear and proceeded through a pre-determined pattern to bleed the brakes. I pumped the pedal and Tim was on the bleeder with 7/16" wrench. The black 1/4" ID hose worked very well by the way and Tim was able to observe the fluid entering the bottle. As soon as it was clean flowing we moved on to the next bleeder.


This fluid was recovered toward the end of the brake flush on the rear caliper. (middle)

We finished up all 4 bleeders and that was that. Finally "Clean Fluid" and I am so relieved. Looking at the recovered fluid I can not begin to tell you how disappointed I was in the color and composition of the fluid.

When I had the calipers changed about 18 months ago apparently the fluid replacement was over looked by me. First of all I take full responsibility however that said when a service center changes 4 calipers, a fluid change is mandatory. Make sure when your calipers are changed that the fluid is completely flushed.


I am facing West with the sun directly behind the bottle on the horizon. Note the sun is completely blocked out.

About the fluid - there's a story that can be told by observing the recovered fluid. After I had just recovered the fluid I observed what appeared to be micro particles in the fluid which might have been suspended water globules. Some of the fluid I recovered was too dark to ID the suspended particles. The darkest fluid that was recovered came from the rear calipers and the front calipers. The fluid that was recovered from the Hydro-Max was also very dark in appearance.


Closeup of more debris in the bottom of the recovery bottle.

I let the bottles of recovered fluid sit on the shelf for 4 days or so and all the suspended particles fell to the bottom of the bottles. I can see that this is also the same event that happens to your pistons while the vehicle is sitting for a few weeks. In the pictures you can clearly see the contaminants which have fallen out of suspension and pooled in the bottom of the containers.

In a few of the photos I took. I placed the bottle on a step ladder and shot facing west with the sun being low on the horizon and directly behind the bottle. Let me tell you, some of the fluid I had completely blocked out the sun.


This was a bottle that I shook and photographed facing West toward the sun which is directly behind the bottle.

I have been stating over and again to change your brake fluid, it's important and you need to do it. Well, I just got around to doing it. In the future, I'll be flushing out the old fluid at minimum of every 2 years according to the new recommendation.

Flushing out the system every year would be ideal and not all that expensive. It cost less than $5.00 for a quart of DOT3 and $20.00 out the door. This is very inexpensive insurance for sure and you can fully expect that I have learned my lesson and I will be flushing my fluid more often.

I opened 4 Quarts of fluid. I replaced about 3 qts and a couple of ounces to complete the job. I did spill some fluid however the next time I'll have something more professional that won't let me waste any fluid. I just about completely filled the master cylinder and then I pulled out about 1 to 2 ounces of fluid from each side which brought the fluid down to where it should be. I fully expect that w/o spills I can do this job using 3 Quarts.

One can not state how much caution one needs to observe and how clean and contaminant free this process has to be when you're filling the master cylinder. When bleeding, the expansion rubber will come out and needs to be gently pushed back with a clean tool. The next time I do this job, it'll go by a lot quicker.

I still have my Oemy Speed Bleeders in the packages however when I have the campaign performed on my rig, I don't want to take a chance and loose the Speed Bleeders. Additionally there's a paint on the bleeders that I want to leave in pristine condition so when I install the bleeders on my new calipers there won't be any need to restore the coating.

So that's it from South Carolina -- Thanks for reading!
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:35 AM   #2
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EXCELLENT! Thanks for posting; there's nothing like a few pictures to emphasize the importance of changing brake fluid. I have this on my spring work list for the new-to-us 1999 Safari TREK.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:19 AM   #3
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Mike,

Great post. I can't stress enough that we need to do this at minimum evry 2 years or yearly on a low mileage use vehicles as the brake fluid just sits there and draws moisture.

I did a flush and bleed on Whaler's Winni this past Monday and he only had 8,000 miles on the clock. We picked up some DOT 3 at O'Reilly's Auto Parts on sale for 2 qts for $5. So, his fluid change only cost him $8 plus may labor charge. The new DOT 3 was clear and his fluid was already turning a dark yellow. It was obvious that it was starting to draw moisture. I tested it and it was still serviceable. But, as he spends a lot of his RV tiime near the ocean we decided to change it anyway. Whaler also opt'd to not to install the speed bleeders until the brake campaign was over.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:34 AM   #4
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I remove the fluid from the master cylinder with an air powered brake vacuum bleeder. You can get one from Harbor Freight (92924-6VGA) for about $30. You can bleed the brakes with this if you don't want to do a 2 man pressure bleed or don't have Speed Bleeders install.



I use a modified garden sprayer from Harbor Freight to fill the Master cylinder.



Note - The DOT 4 in the photo was used only because it was on BOGO sale.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:02 AM   #5
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When bleeding, the expansion rubber will come out and needs to be gently pushed back with a clean tool.
I read this and I was wondering what the heck is he talking about? The rubber that I am speaking about is on the bottom of the filler caps (2) !

Thanks for the support on the brake fluid flushing. I don't think that this subject can be spoken about too much because it's something that immediately goes to the back of our minds if you just are not totally aware about what's at stake.

If we all only walk away with one thing on our minds, "Make sure that when your recall is completed that your system is completely purged of old fluid and that you have a fresh load of DOT3 when you leave the service center." I'm hoping that this won't be the case but they will bleed and possibly not flush so be on the lookout!

If I were to use the crudest of baselines I would look for a line on the Invoice that would show how many pints (typically) have been added to the system that they are charging for. You should see where they are billing for anywhere from 6 to 7 pints. Sometimes it may happen that a service shop (not necessarily Workhorse) won't give you and Invoice stating that it's a warranty job and customers don't get the Invoice - "Get one anyway!" and check. I believe the capacity of our hydraulic brake system is right around 3 quarts.

Make sure that you speak to your service witter when you bring your vehicle in at the time of the recall and that you clearly specify, "Replace Brake Fluid", goes on the work order. Ask him to show it to you so that he will understand that it's important to you.

There are a number of excellent service centers out there that will automatically replace the fluid so just make sure that it gets done.

Now in between now and then, changing your brake fluid is a good thing. Remember new brake fluid comes out of its container crystal clear.

After the campaign is completed - "Stay on it and don't forget to keep your fluid clean!" You do that and you at least can feel confident that you've done your part. The ROI there will be substantial.

About cleaning pins and slides, from what I have been told, that's has not not been seen as a major point of failure but I might consider a wheels off inspection and lube perhaps every 2 years. If you can have this done in conjunction with a tire rotation - so much the better.
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Old 01-27-2010, 09:17 AM   #6
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I did a flush and bleed on Whaler's Winni this past Monday and he only had 8,000 miles on the clock. We picked up some DOT 3 at O'Reilly's Auto Parts on sale for 2 qts for $5..
The last time I saw Whaler was at the Hook @ Exit 181 here in SC and it was raining at the time. I expect that he brought some South Carolina moisture with him to Texas!

Leave it up to you Oemy to find the bargains and least expensive products out there! Man $5 bucks for 2 quarts "outstanding!"

If anyone is reading this from the "other" camp (Blue Oval Guys) if you look on your Bosch Hydro-Max, the requirement is for Super DOT4


Ford/Bosch Hydro-Max.

Note the mounting position is from front to back. The label states; Warning! "Clean filler cap before removing" Use ONLY Super DOT4 Fluid" We also see where the fluid level should be at minimum 1" below the bottom of the ring.

I'm not sure as well as to WHY Ford would label the Hydro-Max with a warning label stating to ONLY use DOT4 when we know that DOT3 will work just as well "especially" in the unlikely event one might need replacement brake fluid. DOT3 & DOT4 are miscible without any consequence.

Workhorse has not recommended the use of DOT4 in its system and so far has stayed the course with DOT3. That may change but we'll see if that's going to be the case.

One might want to consider the greater affinity that DOT4 has over DOT3 for moisture and whether or not a higher boiling point is essential if everything is working properly. I know DOT4 containers state low moisture absorption BUT ... Oemy will tell you that frequently changed DOT3 will out perform DOT4 "cost wise" any day of the week!

On a properly working system and if you are having a tendency to overheat your brake fluid (which there's no way you would know about it - until its too late) you should question driving technique. Remember; "Grab a Gear and lay off the brakes!" If you have a TGB "You're livin' large!" If you need one you can always get an AUGB!
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Old 01-27-2010, 09:57 AM   #7
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A 1/4" piece of water drip line or something simular and a syringe from a hardware store will allow you to syphon the brake fluid out of the master in short time.
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Old 01-27-2010, 09:35 PM   #8
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DriVer, Shame on you! Being such an advocate on changing our brake fluid every 2 years and you waited 7 years to change yours? Tisk Tisk...
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Old 01-28-2010, 01:23 AM   #9
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When I start bleeding the brake is the bleeder open by turning clockwise or counter clockwise.
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Old 01-28-2010, 03:03 AM   #10
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When I start bleeding the brake is the bleeder open by turning clockwise or counter clockwise.
righty tighty, lefty loosey.
loosen (open) counter clockwise.
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:03 AM   #11
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Could you good folks tell me if this brake fluid replacement is limited to the Workhorse chasis? Or do other motorhomes need to have the brake fluid replaced every two years?
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:15 AM   #12
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DriVer, Shame on you! Being such an advocate on changing our brake fluid every 2 years and you waited 7 years to change yours? Tisk Tisk...
I had that coming .....
Now putting that up and accepting the blame for my omission should help focus attention on this very important task for anyone reading the article. Brake fluid is so out of sight and out of mind that it falls on the bottom of anyone's list of things to do.

I would like to rotate that up on the list of things to do above replacing engine coolant. The recommendation is for 150k/5yrs miles. Owners will often change their coolant but not the brake fluid.

PS: When was the last time you heard of a doctor going for a physical?
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:19 AM   #13
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Could you good folks tell me if this brake fluid replacement is limited to the Workhorse chassis? Or do other motorhomes need to have the brake fluid replaced every two years?
If you have a hydraulic brake system, I would indeed recommend that any vehicle that runs DOT3/DOT4 brake fluid be replaced. 1 year seems to be the proactive thing to do in the wisdom that we have been sharing here however a 2 year interval would be acceptable and desirable.
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:20 AM   #14
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righty tighty, lefty loosey.
loosen (open) counter clockwise.
Thanks, when you are under there trying to loosen the first bleeder and it was not moving you start second guessing yourself. I get under there today.

Again thanks
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