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Old 08-28-2009, 09:21 PM   #1
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What is the trigger for these brake problems?

We are talking about taking a vacation trip but concerned about all the brake failures, people being stranded and accidents posted in the this forum and others.
Does anyone know of any specific triggers that are causing these breakdowns? It seems some people have many thousands of miles and no brake problems yet, and only some of those the spark plug/wire problem. Then there are others with only 10,000 miles sitting on the side of the road waiting for help. We only have 10,000 miles at this time.
We are trying to decide about taking a vacation trip in the motor home next month, but crossing over mountains is a big part of our concern. No matter what direction we go from home we have mountains to deal with.
We have had the right rear brakes checked by a workhorse shop because it always seems to run hot on a trip but found nothing. The ABS light coming on in the dash apparently hasn’t told them anything either as it always goes out again sooner or later, usually after moving about a block.
The last trip I started home from the RV Park and the abs dash light stayed on for 20 miles before going out once I got into city traffic and started using the brakes a lot. I went down to the storage today and run the Engine and this time for the first time in a long time the ABS light came on with the key but went out after starting without moving the MH. It has normally gone out after moving the motor home about a block although last time it took 20 miles for it to go out.
This is all a bit confusing. I would welcome any impute you people might have.
Do we yet have any status on getting the parts for this recall? How will we be positioned on shops list once the parts are available.
Appreciate a response from anyone with this requested information. I can only stall my wife for so long. She wants to go on vacation. Like NOW!
Best to all.
Bill Forrest Rexhall Rexair
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Old 08-28-2009, 09:44 PM   #2
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There are no constant triggers that I know of. Now that being said here how I drive (30k and no brake problems).

1) Do not ride the brakes. I apply and release the brakes to scrub off speed "EARLY".
2) I do not hold the brakes when stopped at a light. Shift to Neutral and then to Drive just before the light changes.
3) Turn off O/D when descending hills or steep grades.
4) Use the grade brake or down shift to reduce speed when descending hills or steep grades.
5) Install an Aux Brake system on your tow vehicle.
6) Install a set of Speed Bleeders and flush/bleed your brakes yearly.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:43 PM   #3
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BILL: Not trying to give you more reason for concern, but the INTERIM LETTER has a Description of defect paragraph. It begins " Certain RV applications equipped with....Bosch.....hydralic disc brakes when combined with occasional or seasonal vehicle operation may experience calipers sticking......"

Generally speaking, I think we are seeing less problems being reported by owners who use their MH frequently and put on more than just a few thousand miles each year. Coaches who don't get regular use and/or sit parked for months on end seem to have problems shortly after being put to use. IMO, this is what led WCC to originally think the problem was related to slide pin lubrication. Many owners diligently heeded the call to lube their pins & slides, and some still had problems with sticking calipers. The NHTSA investigation ultimately led them to conclude the problem actually is with the pistons sticking in the caliper bores, and thus we will soon have the recall to replace all four calipers.

To answer your question about position on "shops list", I suggest you call the ASC of your choice as soon as you receive the recall paperwork. Each shop will grant appointments according to their work load and ability to get the new calipers in stock. I'd like to believe that owners with the most serious issues would be taken first, but each ASC is an independant business that can choose how they want to handle their customer requests. Bottom line, IMO, will be to find an ASC who wants your business and will work with you to get the recall completed.

Regarding your desire to get going, I would do just that. Read up on the info in the INTERIM NOTICE letter, and be aware of the symptoms listed. Take the "cab card" with you for quick reference. As you drive, especially at the beginning of your trip, remain vigilent and pay attention to anything that does not feel right. While sitting at a red light on a level paved surface carefully lift your foot off the brakes, or wait for the light to turn green. If the coach will start rolling without you touching the accelerator, then you don't have a sticking caliper. If it seems to be slow getting going when accelerating, maybe one or more are sticking. If you think you sense a problem, find a safe place to pull over and get out to look and smell. IF you have a problem, call roadside assistance for help / advice. We have seen a recommendation to wait an hour or two for things to cool off, and this has worked for some. If the "rolling test" mentioned above is passed after a cool down, then I would drive on..... but I'd be even more vigilent in watching for another heating up condition, and would seek repair assistance rather than keep stopping for repeated cool downs. Granted all this brake related stuff is a royal PITA, but it will soon be in the past. You've got many more miles of use ahead of you, so don't be afraid to use the MH. Just be careful and vigilent until this campaign is completed. Good luck! ED
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:29 AM   #4
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Bebop, Fortunately, we have not seen many posts or have I heard from owners that accidents with injuries have occurred in regard to the current brake situation. NHTSA records have also not exhibited injuries in regard to the brake recall in which they have concluded their investigation.

I believe that many owners that have experienced this type of failure while underway feel fortunate that they were not in an accident. If a driver disregards the warning signs or isn't aware of them and continues to the point where the caliper has boiled the fluid and the brake pedal goes to the floor, an accident could indeed happen if a driver is not quick to react.

In the event a pedal to the floor is situation is realized, repeated pumping of the pedal will often bring back the feel to the pedal and a stop can be achieved. This technique needs to be applied quickly. It's only human nature that when one steps on a brake pedal in a panic situation they are not going to let off the pedal until the vehicle stops.

Before you get on the road for your trip, I would like to suggest that you consider flushing your brake fluid. In my opinion and the opinion of so many more technical experts in this area of discussion assuring that a vehicle has 100% DOT3 or 4 brake fluid is essential.

Brake fluid's job is to absorb water and keep it a suspension. When the brake fluid become saturated with water, it collects in the low spots and impinges on the surrounding surfaces. This is typically where the caliper pistons reside. Introducing contamination, sludge, slurry or any other property of water that presents as a contamination in the piston bores is the "trigger" for a great many of these problems.

One questions, why then does the water create these problems aside from the contamination? The material that the caliper piston is made from, phenolic, absorbs a degree of the water present and swells the piston in its bore causing a seizure.

It is expected that the new calipers will address this issue and they will be extremely resistant to the pistons swelling in their bores. This new technology introduced and problem solved will still not absolve owners from routine brake service.

The simplest and most reliable strategy and the best proactive maintenance plan for new calipers calls for a flush within the first 24 months of ownership and continued bleeding at each corner on an annual basis.

This action will displace any water that may collect in the low spots of the brake system.

For the immediate need, I would recommend a complete flush with the expectation that if a condition exists it won't be made worse by the presence of water. This said, if a stuck caliper exists, it is possible that a flush won't fix or prevent future problems however you can have the confidence that you're done what you could to manage a problem by performing this time-tested maintenance procedure.

You can perform your own inquiry into this matter by using Google and the keywords; hydraulic brakes and water.

I agree with Ed. I would not cancel my travel plans, I would be bold and say, "Damn the torpedoes - full speed ahead!" Go for it! and not to be omitted, Tempus Fugit!
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Old 08-29-2009, 08:09 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by DriVer View Post
Bebop, Fortunately we have not seen many or have I heard from owners that accidents with injuries have occurred in regard to the current brake situation unless I've not seen the post or missed the conversation. NHTSA records have also not exhibited injuries in regard to the brake recall in which they have concluded their investigation.

I believe that many owners that have experienced this type of failure while underway feel fortunate that they were not in an accident. If a driver disregards the warning signs or isn't aware of them and continues to the point where the caliper has boiled the fluid and the brake pedal goes to the floor, an accident could indeed happen if a driver is not quick to react.

In the event a pedal to the floor is situation is realized, repeated pumping of the pedal will often bring back the feel to the pedal and a stop can be achieved. This technique needs to be applied quickly. It's only human nature that when one steps on a brake pedal in a panic situation they are not going to let off the pedal until the vehicle stops.

Before you get on the road for your trip, I would like to suggest that you consider flushing your brake fluid. In my opinion and the opinion of so many more technical experts in this area of discussion assuring that a vehicle has 100% DOT3 or 4 brake fluid is essential.

Brake fluid's job is to absorb water and keep it a suspension. When the brake fluid become saturated with water, it collects in the low spots and impinges on the surrounding surfaces. This is typically where the caliper pistons reside. Introducing contamination, sludge, slurry or any other property of water that presents as a contamination in the piston bores is the "trigger" for a great many of these problems.

One questions, why then does the water create these problems aside from the contamination? The material that the caliper piston is made from, phenolic, absorbs a degree of the water present and swells the piston in its bore causing a seizure.

It is expected that the new calipers will address this issue and they will be extremely resistant to the pistons swelling in their bores. This new technology introduced and problem solved will still not absolve owners from routine brake service.

The simplest and most reliable strategy and the best proactive maintenance plan for new calipers calls for a flush within the first 24 months of ownership and continued bleeding at each corner on an annual basis.

This action will displace any water that may collect in the low spots of the brake system.

For the immediate need, I would recommend a complete flush with the expectation that if a condition exists it won't be made worse by the presence of water. This said, if a stuck caliper exists, it is possible that a flush won't fix or prevent future problems however you can have the confidence that you're done what you could to manage a problem by performing this time-tested maintenance procedure.

You can perform your own inquiry into this matter by using Google and the keywords; hydraulic brakes and water.

I agree with Ed. I would not cancel my travel plans, I would be bold and say, "Damn the torpedoes - full speed ahead!" Go for it! and not to be omitted, Tempus Fugit!
I think that is what I said... just a few less words.
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Old 08-29-2009, 08:44 AM   #6
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I think that is what I said... just a few less words.
DALE: ya know, Moderators get paid by the word. NOT !

In OUR defense, we sometimes do get a little verbose trying to help members. Striking the right balance between too cryptic and too wordy is tough, especially if one is trying to be through....yadayadayada. ED
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:11 AM   #7
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I have an '02 chassis w/32,000 miles. About 2 years ago I had my first brake overheating problem. It occured after driving 2 hours on a flat interstate then taking a 2 lane highway with many traffic lights. I pulled over to allow cooling and all was good until the next time. I then had a mechanic clean and lube the calipers and change the pads. The next time I made the same route I had the same exact problem in the same area. I then had the caliper changed. Not much longer I had the same problem again. This time I changed both rear calipers AND had the brake fluid changed. That was 18 months ago. I haven't had any brake problems since. Unless it has already been done, it would my suggestion that you have your brake fluid changed prior to your trip so that any accumulated moisture in the brake fluid can be flushed out. Cheap insurance!
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:11 AM   #8
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I was just tryin' to answer the question .... it ain't easy being green!
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Old 08-29-2009, 10:58 AM   #9
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Bill,

Why some fail and some don’t?

Too me that is still the Million Dollar Question?

I don’t want to influence your own good judgment but this is my story on my own brake problems:

Right after purchasing our 2002 Adventure in April of 2004 with 28K miles I noticed the MH pulling right when applying the brakes. I took the MH back to the dealer to have it checked and they did the front caliper recall.

The following Summer vacation took us to the west with plenty of mountain driving, same in 2005, and then during our 2006 vacation with approx, 46,000 miles we had our first major brake failure. After driving on the Skyline Drive and the Blue Ridge Parkway all day we decided to head down to Roanoke VA to restock on supplies. Not aware of any brake problems as we approached a red light I applied the brakes and they went all the way to the floor. I was able to pump the brakes and get the MH stopped. Looking for a place to get off the main road and approaching my next red light, I applied the brakes and they went all the way to the floor again and pumping them did not work this time. We coasted into a parking lot and called our road service to get help.

After being towed to a Workhorse SC it was determined that the left rear caliper had failed and the sensor had burned out. After having the brake caliper and sensor replaced and all other brake pins and slides lubricated we continued home to Florida, about 700 miles. While having some work done at our dealer, they discovered that the right rear caliper had frozen up and it had to be replaced.

In 2007 we took an almost 7000 mile trip west with plenty of mountains and experienced no brake problems. This year before we left on our 6300 mile vacation, I had the brake fluid drained and flushed because it looked like and felt like honey.

Needless to say I still get a little bit of paranoia and a bit anxious when we start down our first steep mountain. This years vacation took us on the steepest grade I have ever encountered, 10%, with no apparent brake problems.

Even though I feel comfortable while driving the motor home, the failures that I and others have had is always in the back of my mind, and make me very vigilant about my braking techniques.

Did I mention I pray a lot

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Old 08-29-2009, 11:56 AM   #10
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There are actually 2 or 3 different brake failues.. one of them the trigure is time.. This one bit me on my car, Took 200,000 miles, but it bit me on my car. I won't describe it here

The one that trigured the recall. it seems to be hit and miss. there are two factors, one is the pistion in the caliper drawing mositure and swelling up a bit (What do they call that,, edemia?) and the other is heat, the two combine to cause the problem

So the responder who said "Don't ride your brakes" (and I might add use the Grade Brake feature on the Allison transmission when you can) gave good advice.

Basicall.. Do not worry about it

Look for the thread that talks about watching some videos saving your life... WATCH THE VIDEOS.. They are not kidding.
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:37 PM   #11
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After my second failure I travel about 500 miles in several short trips and had another. I didnt just sit and let them cool but I had a brake job done at a wh center. Also about one week before I made one of my short trips on these new brakes I took it back to same wh center to have them inspected again. Maybe overkill but I felt better having it done. Well then came my third failure. So to sum it up, several trips and 500 miles on new brake parts, brake fluid changed 3 or 4 times(Ive lost count), no mountain driving, And I definatly know how to drive it. IMO, I think it design or lack there of. Call me crazy but if I have a brake failure where my pedal goes to floor, fluid boils, and so on I would take it to a shop. Good luck.
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:59 PM   #12
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I was just tryin' to answer the question .... it ain't easy being green!
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Old 08-29-2009, 03:59 PM   #13
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I appreciate all the responses to this thread.thank you to all.
OEM Tech, I have done or do every thing you mentioned except # 6.
I have been RV'ing since 1979 starting out with a 35 foot fifth wheel and a one ton sedan dooley in which we full time for 5 years covering a lot of miles. I have run a lot of mountains and never had a brake problem. I still don't want to have one but I want to know everything I should know as a matter of self preservation, including how to roll a motor home if worst comes to worse.
I will take the MH into my WH shop and have the fluid replaced and then we will just go. I don't load heavy and the toad is only 2400 pounds so we will get it stopped one way or another
I do appreciate everyone's responses.
Best to all,
Bebop
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Old 08-29-2009, 04:37 PM   #14
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Oemy, We are just finishing up our summer trip of about 8,000 miles. While heading south on I17 from Flagstaff to Phoenix there is a long, long downgrade. I downshifted and judiciously applied my brakes just enough to keep the MH at around 55 mph. Near the end of the 12 mile downgrade is a rest stop. I had been watching my TST monitor and the front tires were both up to 130 F, the rears were a few degrees lower. The outside temperature was about 95 F. We stopped and waited until the fronts cooled down about 10 degrees. I didn't notice any sponginess in the brake pedal and no pulling. Am I just a victim of long grade, high outside temperature or should I be concerned about the recall problem?

Thanks Dave
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