Workhorse P32 Front Suspension

[edgray]

Originally Posted by CamJam1

Sorry... my bad! I tend to lump the P30 and 32 together, but obviously there are some differences and you're correct that Rock Auto lists very little for a 2005 P32.

The OP in this thread: https://www.irv2.com/forums/f22/p-se...ned-21035.html really was as his name implies. He worked for WCC in the parts department, and I believe he knows what he is talking about.


Perhaps RA doesn't show much for the 2005 model year is because that was the last model year for P32 series production.



Other than replacing the venerable J71 AAPB with the "improved" J72 AAPB, there are no significant differences between the 2005 model compared to the previous model year P32s.

[Isaac-1]

I think they also changed up the rear suspension leaf spring arrangement on the P32 chassis in either 2004 or 2005.

[Mark_K5LXP]

Well, was briefly encouraged by the idea of "P32" being somewhat generic and that I might be able to cross the WCC control arms to something more contemporary or at least better supported. Can't seem to connect those dots though, between WCC, AC Delco, Chevy, GM or aftermarket. If I happen to come across some kind of cross reference that gets me from here to there I'll certainly post it but I guess for now I'm stuck with whatever I can find that has WCC part numbers.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

[Isaac-1]

Be aware you need to be careful with ball joints on the P32 chassis coaches, as they were built with 2 different tapers depending on factors like wheel size, GVWR and rear drum or disc brakes. (I know rear brakes should not effect front ball joints, but it does). The problem is you can get them to fit together when they are mismatched, but the ball joint will fail, so make sure to get the right parts with the right mating taper.

[D Gardiner]

Originally Posted by Mark_K5LXP

I'm exploring options for repairing the front suspension on my 2005 Itasca/P32 Workhorse chassis.

...the lower control arms are cracking in the pocket the coil springs sit in.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

Hello Mark,
I'm going to lay the blame on the installer of the springs and not the springs themselves. Why?

When I look at your photo (reposted below) I see the end of the spring winding not sitting fully in the terminus the lower control arm (LCA) pocket. This placement slightly rotates the spring, in the LCA seat/perch, causing a small spring deflection. This deflection lowers spring contact against the LCA, and increasing pressure on the tip of the spring against the LCA. This higher load area will eventually cause metal fatigue, leading to failure of the LCA.

This failure would happen with a stock spring, or a supersteer spring, just the same.

Example would be the tip of a ladies high heel. Concentrating the weight of the person on a small contact area.

This is what I believe happened to you. Personally welding the LCA is not an option.

Two pictures for you to mull over. The first is your posted picture, with what I'm seeing, and the second is of our 1996 LCA on our P32 14,800 pound, JF9 brake chassis.
The only difference I can see is ours has a water drain hole near the spring seat where your LCA does not.

When I installed our supersteer springs 10K miles ago, getting the springs rotated and stay seated correctly, took me a couple attempts. The spring had a tendency rotate as the lower control arm was lifted, compressing the spring.

Believe me it's frustrating, when a spring moves. As a former auto tech, I can confidently say, many mechanics would not care how the spring was seated. They were more concerned about getting the job done, and being paid. If your vehicle broke outside of warranty, they would not care.

[Mark_K5LXP]

Originally Posted by Isaac-1

Be aware you need to be careful with ball joints on the P32 chassis coaches,

Yep, I've seen that referenced several places. Thanks for the heads up. I'll have the benefit of having the old part in my hand to compare with before the new one goes in.

Originally Posted by D Gardiner

I see the end of the spring winding not sitting fully in the terminus the lower control arm (LCA) pocket.

I get what you're saying but would that really make that much of a difference? Seems if there's a point contact stress point it wouldn't matter where it was specifically placed. It's not like that terminus location in the pocket is going to be any stronger and no telling how much of the spring is contacting the area of the pocket. The pocket is too deep/things in the way to see exactly where the ends are sitting until I get it apart. The other control arm is cracked right at the pocket terminus so my theory is a sharp end/edge on the spring. Between that and a spring that is stiffer in my mind are the primary contributors. Even with stock springs I'm thinking I might put a little radius on the spring end before I put them in.

getting the springs rotated and stay seated correctly, took me a couple attempts. The spring had a tendency rotate as the lower control arm was lifted, compressing the spring.

Good info. So when you put them in did you disconnect the upper or lower ball joint? I've seen instructions for doing it both ways. Since I have to replace the lower ball joint anyway it would be ideal if I had to disassemble as little as possible.

many mechanics would not care how the spring was seated.

Not sure if the hole is for drainage or indexing. Mine is the first I've seen that didn't have a hole. Will be interesting to see if the new control arms have holes or not.

If your vehicle broke outside of warranty, they would not care.

I find it very telling that SuperSpring specifically mentions they're not responsible for broken control arms. If it were a simple matter of ensuring proper indexing it would be one thing but it seems (to me) improbable that a 1/4" difference in position would result in catastrophic failure. Maybe stock springs have the same issue but I found no mention of it digging through a bunch of different forums.

Maybe I'll discover a sharp edge on the SuperSprings or possibly corrosion or other failure with the control arms that would give me pause to reinstall them but I'm still going with the idea I'll be installing an OEM spring and airbags, along with new shocks and see how it performs from there. I can always put the SuperSprings back in.

Thanks for posting, and the pictures.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

[Isaac-1]

You keep saying that the Supper Steer Springs are stiffer than the originals, which is not my experience, they are only stiffer when the air bags are not inflated like they should be with the stock springs. The big advantage I find to the Super Steer Springs is more effective front spring travel, with the stock springs and air bags inflated to specs the front spring rate is very progressive and limits spring compression.

[schmaco]

My 30ft Land Yacht 8.1L sat low and bottomed out on dippy roads up north.
The Air Lifts are supposed to be set for around 55lbs to achieve a certain measured lift height which listed in the alignment data.
After paying for a pricey alignment I still found around the same height and slushy front.
I found Stengel Brothers, to be a very reasonable source for a full line of Suspension parts, Springs and Airlifts.

They are supplied from the same OEM sources as the manufacturers.

This was suggested to me by a Boat Captain once,
He said'

Don't look for trouble since it will find you soon enough anyway.

My observation and 2 cents.

Our lower spring pocket is only formed steel and can be easily welded in place and reinforced by any general Welder Fabricator. Just Not an Rv place to save.
That metal crack seems minor to me and the pocket does not look rotted which is the real enemy. It looks like the crack is at the stub end of the spring.
Not really affecting the load on the mount. Just Inspect and Weld/Repair if it looks strong.
Then, Buy the stiffest springs $100-150 that will fit in the same Length for a P32 Chassis.
You need all the coil spring you can get for these front ends.

I would replace the AirLift 1000 Bags while doing the springs.
The springs actually came in less than an inch longer so they were a little struggle to insert during assembly but worked out fine afterwards.
Be careful to keep the valve stem centered in the base hole of the spring mount while inflating the Air Lifts.
This actually lifted the Front end up around 2-3 inches to look level as desired.
Still keep 50-55 lbs air in the Lifts. Feels much more secure during dips, etc.
The last thing I have installed is a $150 Roadmaster Sway Bar Extension that greatly widens the spacing of the pivots for the bar.
This reduces swaying for me somewhat.
Drill in for a grease fitting on what I call the Brake pedal Master Cylinder pivot "Idler" arm.
Call Stengel Brothers, PA
They will know what you need/want.

I bought new $100 Airlift Bag Kit at the same time.
The springs are Black like originals.
They can provide any other suspension parts as well.

Stengel Brothers, Whitehall, PA
Stengel Bros Inc. - Springs, Steering, and Suspension Specialists
1-888-433-3149 within U.S.
Stengel Bros Inc. - Spring, Steering, and Suspension Specialists

This Post is only meant to help others by providing my own experiences.
Bet of Luck to All
Stephen Scheuer

[Mark_K5LXP]

Originally Posted by Isaac-1

You keep saying that the Supper Steer Springs are stiffer than the originals, which is not my experience,

You are right, I don't have any specific data to show what these or the OEM springs do (does anyone?). I'm going by appearance only. The SS springs look thicker than OEM so it's inferred they're stiffer but I get that may not be necessarily the case.

Originally Posted by schmaco

The Air Lifts are supposed to be set for around 55lbs to achieve a certain measured lift height

Whoever installed my supersprings also reinstalled the air bags, which I experimented with a few times. Maybe it's the nature oft he supersprings but ride height is unaffected by bag pressure, even up to 90PSI. So it seems maybe they're just a supplement to the OEM spring with little lift to contribute to the supersprings.

Our lower spring pocket is only formed steel and can be easily welded in place and reinforced by any general Welder Fabricator.

One of the vendors I contacted suggested this. I guess it would depend on what was welded and where, but I envision the metal becoming brittle at or near the weld and cracking again. Maybe a "pro" would have some specific insight on this but I'm thinking finding someone that would sign up to weld on a vehicle suspension component may not be easy to find. At least around here. The vendor that suggested it did not have any references for welding services.

The last thing I have installed is a $150 Roadmaster Sway Bar Extension that greatly widens the spacing of the pivots for the bar.
This reduces swaying for me somewhat.

Can't say I have an issue with sway, though I guess it would be something to look for with different springs.

Drill in for a grease fitting on what I call the Brake pedal Master Cylinder pivot "Idler" arm.

I can picture that arm. It never occurred to me it wasn't greased.

Call Stengel Brothers, PA

I came across their website in my travels but their spring selection uses a part number reference I couldn't cross to WCC. But, seems maybe I just need to talk to a person and work it from that direction. I also have a couple other sources of springs to review so will pick one at some point and go from there.

THANK YOU very much for your sage and specific information. I will be sure to update this thread as I get parts and time to start tearing into it. Fortunately even for February it's been in the 50's and 60's so working outside won't be miserable.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

[Charlie 5320]

I called moog directly to get the part numbers for my ball joints. The cheapest I found them was from Walmart, 1/2 of what a lot of others wanted for the same part. I'd remove the springs and weld up that crack, and wouldn't give it a second thought. I've built a few race cars in my time and never have had a weld fail. Don't believe those SS springs are designed to have air springs in them. I used Firestone air springs in my coach and set the ride Hight with air pressure according to load. My currant coach needs 60 psi at my load to handle good. Front shocks makes a huge difference how one rides and handles too. I use Gabriel shocks designed for a motor home, and they work quite well.

[Mark_K5LXP]

Disassembly is mostly complete and my suspicion that a sharp edge on the end of the coil spring caused the crack was confirmed. Photos below show the shape of the spring end as found, and the marks inside the control arm spring pocket. The spring is "flat ground" for a quarter turn or so. Looking at the spring pocket it's easy to see that the spring end, and even the edges of the flat area left wear marks.

I ordered aftermarket replacement springs because OEM was more than twice the price and I figure being not the same ones I have, it qualifies as "different" enough to try. The new springs are just cut straight, nothing rounded off or flattened. Seems I have a few different installation options-

1.- Install as is, that's how they're sold.
2.- Round off the cut end.
3.- Increase the radius of ~1/8 to 1/4 turn from the end (not flat but less round).
4.- Some combination of 2 & 3.

Discussing this with a buddy that owns and rebuilds military trucks, his idea was to put some kind of "pad" at the bottom of the pocket. Not sure what kind of "pad" would tolerate having those kind of forces on it but I'd be game to trying anything once. The "supercoil" brand of spring booster/inserts seem to be able to put up with that kind of pressure so maybe something like that, modified to fit. Or even a chunk of old tire or perhaps some soft metal (aluminum plate?) that would deform and distribute the point loads. Just wild ideas at this point. So throwing this out to the brain trust here, any suggestions to offer as a first pass try?

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

[Isaac-1]

I would worry about galvanic interactions if you use Aluminum

[Charlie 5320]

I would V that crack out an weld ur back up. The springs you are buying, are they designed to be used with or without the air springs? Just make sure they are installed in the pocket like they are supposed to be. The springs you have in there now wasn't supposed to use the air spring. Did you check the ride height with the air spring deflated before you removed them? Those springs may be just fine if installed correctly in the pocket. From the looks of your pic the spring wasn't putting pressure evenly around the control arm. I wouldn't put anything in there to cushion it, never had anything from the factory.

Are the new springs the same diameter as the ones ya took out? The ones ya took out appear to be too big to fit in the pocket like they are supposed to.

[Mark_K5LXP]

Thought I'd wrap up the story here once I had some results.

Basically did a complete R&R of the front suspension. New control arms from URVP, Moog ball joints, SuperSpring springs (not to be confused with SuperSteer), Firestone air bags, and Koni shocks. Plus various and sundry hardware, bumpers, seals and boots.

I can't readily prove it but my suspicion as to root cause for the control arms cracking is a "coil bound" condition, caused by the springs completely compressing before the control arm bumpers come into contact with the frame. I do not have a stock spring to measure to compare to the SuperSteer spring, or any technical spring data to review. So hopefully if that really is the root cause, these different springs will mitigate the control arms cracking again.

Before I installed the springs, I used an angle grinder to round the sharp edge off the control arm end of the spring. I ensured when I installed them, the end stopped just short of the recess in the control arm pocket, hopefully making that point contact by the end of the spring as small as possible.

The rest of the job went pretty much by the numbers, assembly is reverse of disassembly. While I was in there I replaced the tie rod end boots, which were failing. Three of the four ball joint boots had completely failed and one ball joint was "loose", so digging into the front suspension was likely my destiny irrespective of the control arm failure.

Doing some static measurements, with the air bags inflated the suspension height is within a quarter inch of before, so my concerns that SuperSprings might not have the ride height of the SuperSteer springs ended up being a non problem. Just to test, I deflated the air bags, extended and compressed the front end to reset it, and the ride height difference is just 5/8". So the air bags do not significantly contribute to ride height but without them the control arm bumpers are that much closer to the stops, so fully intend on leaving them inflated.

During the maiden voyage to a nearby state park last week the ride is noticeably better than previously. Hard to know how much of that was contributed by the SuperSprings/airbags or Koni vs Bilstein shocks, but I'll take it. I didn't discern if after replacing all these parts that the alignment was affected, it didn't seem like it. It's on the to-do list for when I can find a shop around here that gives the appearance of competency, but for now with just a few short trips in the queue I'll let it ride.

So executive summary: SuperSteer springs/Bilstein shocks thumbs down, SuperSprings/Firestone 4100 airbags/Koni shocks thumbs up. Hopefully this setup will last me a long time.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM