Workhorse! Please take notes on how Toyota is handling their recall!

[EngineerMike]

I heard that Toyota ordered new pedal assemblies from the same outfit (Elkhart, IN IIRC). Toyota had given them turn key specs for the old designs, and does not fault them per the info I received. I.e. Toyota is accepting full and total responsibility across the board, and not waiting for anything or anybody (neither suppliers nor the government) to get a solution in place (contrary to the whining of a plaintiff's attorney or two who should probably be shot, stabbed thru the heart w/a wooden stake, doused in holy water, and then immolated just to make sure).

The Prius braking thing looks at this point like the initial customer reactions to ABS chatter, i.e. the human reaction to the feel works counter-intuitive in some cases where an unskilled operator abandons the brake due to perceived inoperative brakes based on feel. Also looks like this is across the board for multiple mfgr's that have a regenerative braking system in tandem w/customary service brakes. This might be resolvable by a fade-in/fade-out of service for regen braking in the software, tho that greatly complicates the control algorithms.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by EngineerMike

The Prius braking thing looks at this point like the initial customer reactions to ABS chatter, i.e. the human reaction to the feel works counter-intuitive in some cases where an unskilled operator abandons the brake due to perceived inoperative brakes based on feel.

Mike ... perhaps as much as 15-20 years ago when ABS hit the market, drivers were applying the brake in a panic situation yet some were taking their foot off the pedal when the ABS pumping cycles issued feedback into the brake pedal.

I'm wondering if they are not experiencing the same situation?

[EngineerMike]

Twas exactly my thought. The switch-over from standard service to regenerative braking is apparently accompanied by a brief "pause" in the braking, which can take an untutored driver by surprise with some drivers backing off the brakes. Just like the unaccustomed ABS chatter when first introduced was read by some as a brake problem. Also just like ABS, the "cure" is to keep your foot in the brakes.

[dezertcamper]

Originally Posted by EngineerMike

I heard that Toyota ordered new pedal assemblies from the same outfit (Elkhart, IN IIRC). Toyota had given them turn key specs for the old designs, and does not fault them per the info I received. I.e. Toyota is accepting full and total responsibility across the board, and not waiting for anything or anybody (neither suppliers nor the government) to get a solution in place (contrary to the whining of a plaintiff's attorney or two who should probably be shot, stabbed thru the heart w/a wooden stake, doused in holy water, and then immolated just to make sure).

The Prius braking thing looks at this point like the initial customer reactions to ABS chatter, i.e. the human reaction to the feel works counter-intuitive in some cases where an unskilled operator abandons the brake due to perceived inoperative brakes based on feel. Also looks like this is across the board for multiple mfgr's that have a regenerative braking system in tandem w/customary service brakes. This might be resolvable by a fade-in/fade-out of service for regen braking in the software, tho that greatly complicates the control algorithms.

I like the fact that Toyota is biting the bullet and taking blame. Its so easy to point fingers. It was said that WH has stated they will take responsibility for Bosch's defective calipers, but how long has taken them to say this? And even with them stating they will take responsibility we are all still waiting for Bosch. So who is really responsible? What WH should be doing if they are truely taking responsibility is start looking to other brake caliper manufactures for a replacement. I would think there are many companies that would love a chance to get in the door with WH and become a supplier. Then WH can back charge Bosch and deal with Bosch on their time, not mine.

I wish I could take just the blame for something at my work and then not tell my boss when I will resolve my mistake.

Originally Posted by DriVer

Mike ... perhaps as much as 15-20 years ago when ABS hit the market, drivers were applying the brake in a panic situation yet some were taking their foot off the pedal when the ABS pumping cycles issued feedback into the brake pedal.

I'm wondering if they are not experiencing the same situation?

I'm thinking this is exactly what is happening. I believe both Ford and Chevy have this same issue pending right now. I think it was Chevy that said they have a computer program upgrade that should fix the issue. My guess is the Prius and the hybrid Lexus that supposedly uses the same electronics will get some sort of program upgrade to solve their problems.

[jdsr]

Originally Posted by EngineerMike

Toyota is accepting full and total responsibility across the board, and not waiting for anything or anybody (neither suppliers nor the government) to get a solution in place

And that statement sums up the major diff in the way a company should handle a problem and the way wh has and cont to handle it brake problems. Just in this thread alone their rep wrote more than a paragraph on how we the customers are the cause of this brake problem. Wh has done more damage to their company rep, that Imo can never be reversed.

[dezertcamper]

Originally Posted by jdsr

And that statement sums up the major diff in the way a company should handle a problem and the way wh has and cont to handle it brake problems. Just in this thread alone their rep wrote more than a paragraph on how we the customers are the cause of this brake problem. Wh has done more damage to their company rep, that Imo can never be reversed.

JDSR, this is why I started this thread, yet at first I got blasted by a few for doing so. I was even asked why would I start such a thread! I think the closer WH owners see how Toyota is handling what is by far the worst recall / public relations nightmare Toyota or possibly any manufacture has seen. The more WH owners will see how Toyota handles this the more I think they will see how WH and Bosch really have dropped the ball as far as taking care of current WH customers and this will reflect on future purchases of WH chassis, at least by those who are currently dealing with this brake recall.

I will also say that my MH on a WH chassis has not had one brake issue (Knock on wood!!) But just the fact that there is a recall has my wife a bit concerned. And now that we have a new addition to the family has only made her a bit more hyper sensitive to these types of things. She has told me she is a bit worried when we take the MH out because where we go (Desert and River) we have to go through the mountains which means we have to go up and come down both ways. The grade heading East is steep enough that there is a run away gravel pit for simi trucks that lose their brakes.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by dezertcamper

... we take the MH out because where we go (Desert and River) we have to go through the mountains which means we have to go up and come down both ways. The grade heading East is steep enough that there is a run away gravel pit for simi trucks that lose their brakes.

dezertcamper, If you are making a case about your concern in regard to going up and down mountains and are afraid of your brakes, I would like to assure you that no amount of new brakes made by any manufacturer on any make or model of machine are going to improve your ownership experience unless you are operating your vehicle using selective shifting and or your Grade Brake if your vehicle is so equipped.

I am not blaming anyone for their driving habits or lack of experience however when I speak to operation I am accused of telling owners that they can't drive and this is patently not true. Everyone drives within their own experience level and that's why it is so important that the brakes operate equally well for the best or the worst possible driver.

I fully expect that concluding the recall this will be a fact and we can return to talking about other issues.

[dezertcamper]

Originally Posted by DriVer

dezertcamper, If you are making a case about your concern in regard to going up and down mountains and are afraid of your brakes, I would like to assure you that no amount of new brakes made by any manufacturer on any make or model of machine are going to improve your ownership experience unless you are operating your vehicle using selective shifting and or your Grade Brake if your vehicle is so equipped.

Driver I'm not as worried about using the MH as much as my wife is. I do all the driving, but when you have a wife/mother of a young child and she reads a letter about our MH having possible brake failure and that there is a recall, that does not go over well. Especially when there is no date when things will get resolved.

Do you want to know what my worry is? Mine is if we are on a trip and if I have brake issues that 1) it screws my trip up. 2) it will cost me money that I should not have to pay. 3) with how long the recall is taking I can only imagine how long and hard I might have to fight to get reimbursed. I can see WH dragging their feet and giving all these people the run around when it comes to paying them back.

This is my worry!

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by dezertcamper

I can see WH dragging their feet and giving all these people the run around when it comes to paying them back.

I don't expect that it is easy for anybody. I feel very much the same way you do, stuck on the road helpless and not knowing how much is it gonna cost me to get out of this mess.

I was in exactly that position in July 2008 after we suffered a lighting strike. We were OK there for a while until we got into a rest stop in IL someplace and my machine wouldn't start. I sat there for what seemed like an hour, my wife and I, without knowing what or how this issue was going to be resolved. Fortunately when I gave it the very last attempt to start up, the engine fired over. A BIG sign of relief was heard throughout the rest stop!

As you are absent a brake event, I have a one up on you in that I have experienced it all pretty much "except" boiling out my fluid and completely fading my brakes.

Although it may seem the process is as slow as molasses, this issue will be resolved and I hope the sooner the better. I am not some guy sitting behind a desk in a cubicle, I'm an RV'er with all the same concerns as everyone else. I'm sure if we met in person we could hit it off and be friends.

[jdsr]

Originally Posted by dezertcamper

JDSR, this is why I started this thread, yet at first I got blasted by a few for doing so. I was even asked why would I start such a thread! I think the closer WH owners see how Toyota is handling what is by far the worst recall / public relations nightmare Toyota or possibly any manufacture has seen. The more WH owners will see how Toyota handles this the more I think they will see how WH and Bosch really have dropped the ball as far as taking care of current WH customers and this will reflect on future purchases of WH chassis, at least by those who are currently dealing with this brake recall.

I will also say that my MH on a WH chassis has not had one brake issue (Knock on wood!!) But just the fact that there is a recall has my wife a bit concerned. And now that we have a new addition to the family has only made her a bit more hyper sensitive to these types of things. She has told me she is a bit worried when we take the MH out because where we go (Desert and River) we have to go through the mountains which means we have to go up and come down both ways. The grade heading East is steep enough that there is a run away gravel pit for simi trucks that lose their brakes.

I wouldnt worry about a select few who want to blast you. Go back to spring or summer of 2007 and do a research on the wh brakes (Lots of reading but well worth your time)and you will see some folks,(a few at first but it grew very large very fast)who wouldnt accept the excuses and blame that it was our fault. We put the word out( on reporting this to nhtsa) here and on many other sites, campgrounds and anywhere we could inform people about the problems we were having with our brakes and the way wh was treating it/us. ANYONE who says dont worry and just drive it is just fooling themselves. I wouldnt want to be in front of them. It could happen to anyone at anytime. Im also worried about my family and the driving public in general. As far as toyota goes, I dont know how many more times toyota can say they are sorry or how much harder they can work to fix this. Heck they have shut down production and I believe I heard they now have a fix. Wh has Not only not said they are sorry, heck after all these years they still want to blame us and deny us our reimburshments. I have spent thousands on their def brakes parts and Im no better off than I was on day one. I wonder what they want you to do if your going down a mountain ( and braking and shifting like we know how to) and the brakes fail. Hum, they say to just pull over and let them cool. Might be hard to do going down a mountain with no brakes and the pedal goes to the floor. I had the no pedal condition happened to me twice and its no fun. So yes Imo toyota is doing it right and wh, well This is their second brake recall and I truely believe the powers to be have got to be living in a cave because they think when( and Imo IF) this recall is done it will be all forgotten. Wrong. Imo, if they survive this I will be surprised.

[EngineerMike]

Dezert- With a new addition to the family, you are either:
1) way younger than average here, or
2) have my undying respect and admiration.
Congrats in either case.

[mrschwarz]

While Toyota is quite visible in what they are doing now, how long did they know about the problem and why did it take a trip to Japan by the NHTSA before they started taking it seriously? What about Prius brakes? Why did they fix new cars before they were sold, but didn't notify current owners until they were sitting under the spotlight?

Don't get me wrong. I think they make some of the most reliable vehicles on the road. My wife drives a Prius and we have owned another half dozen Toyotas and Lexuses (Lexi?). Right now, it seems that Toyota is doing the right thing because the government is breathing down their back and they appear to be the lead story on the evening news every night.

Workhorse is a small player in the automotive industry. If they got as much attention as Toyota is getting, they would be scrambling, too.

[Photog]

Originally Posted by mrschwarz

Workhorse is a small player in the automotive industry. If they got as much attention as Toyota is getting, they would be scrambling, too.

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Workhorse isn't on the nightly news and as a result they have the luxury of taking their time.

I'd like to think they might spring the recall on us sooner rather than later, but their track record is on the side of dawdling.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by Photog

I'd like to think they might spring the recall on us sooner rather than later, but their track record is on the side of dawdling.

I bet if there were a foundry where Workhorse could make their own brake calipers and rotors then we'd see some action pretty quick. While we're at it perhaps RV manufacturers could make all their own appliances! Winnebago is currently slowed up in production because their automotive air conditioning vendor is out of business. The RV Industry is very small perhaps smaller than you would ever assume. There are just so many people that make parts and components and that's not going to change anytime soon.

Wish as we might for this to begin tomorrow the centers need the parts. They are ready to go and you can be assured of that.