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Old 04-18-2021, 10:34 PM   #43
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Fyi, my drag link took almost exactly 2 turns to get the steering wheel straight again after the caster adjustment.
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Old 04-19-2021, 11:06 AM   #44
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Just finished a 260 mile day, 2/3 of which was 20-25 mph winds with 30-40 mph gusts (depending on which weather service you believe). Nearly every time we passed a flag it was standing straight out, and at the worst times we could see the 18 wheelers getting pushed around too.

Mostly the constant winds were just an inconvenience-- one hand driving most of the time-- and only the biggest gusts were of any concern. I'm not sure a box this big could be made to handle any better in winds like this.

Keep in mind that in addition to the increased caster, I have just about every bolt-on suspension/steering upgrade you can get, with the exception of a front anti-sway bar. I do have trac bars and Sumo Springs front and rear, a rear anti-sway bar and a steering stabilizer. The added caster was the last improvement I made, and it just seemed like icing on the cake. I can't say that it made a huge difference-- perhaps if I had changed caster prior to adding the steering stabilizer I might have noticed more change-- but it sure didn't hurt in any case.

I drove this same route when I drove my W-22 home two years ago. It wasn't even really windy that day, but I remember feeling like it wanted to swap ends, and every time and 18-wheeler passed I got pushed onto the rumble strips. The upgrades made have been worth every penny.
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Old 04-21-2021, 09:54 AM   #45
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Cam, sounds like you have your MH about where you want it. Have a great trip.

It was 25° this morning. Looking for a high of 40° with a brisk breeze. I don't HAVE to work out in the cold so I choose not to. The MH will wait for a couple more days.

My current MH project is getting my leveling jacks to work. Without the jacks working on caster is much harder. I can do most of that inside the warm house, but my leveling jacks is another story!
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Old 05-10-2021, 05:16 PM   #46
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I added alignment wedges to my W20 Workhorse Motorhome.

I started this post asking about factory setting of caster on my Workhorse chassis. The thread morphed into setting the caster to a higher than stock value in order to improve straight line stability.

I posted earlier caster measurements that I made. Please disregard those measurements. I goofed and those values are not accurate because of mistakes on my part.

See the first picture. If you look at the spring pack, it contains from the top to the bottom; a cap, 2 springs, a spacer that extends to the rear and becomes the bottom shock absorber mount and 2 wedge shims. The top shiny shim is the one I added and the rusty one the original. This all sits on top of the axle on a flat machined surface. The complete axle pack is clamped to the axle with 2 u-bolts.

I have a 7” android tablet. It has an app that allows accurate measurement of surface angle relative to level ground. Second picture shows the tablet sitting on the spring machine surface next to the u-bolts displaying the angle of the spring pad relative to ground. It repeatedly measured 2.6° on both left and right sides. These measurements are close enough to the measurements that an alignment shop measured on CamJam1’s MH to give me confidence that I had an accurate measurement.

I decided to add alignment wedges to attain a target of ≈5.5° caster. I needed a 3° wedge. Refer to next picture. It shows the wedges I purchased. They are 159 mm long 11.2 mm at the thick end and 3.4 mm at the thin end. The math says 2.93°. Close enough to 3° for me! The slot allows the wedge to be inserted without removing the center bolt that holds the spring pack together.

Things needed to install the wedges:

• A means to raise the Motorhome by the frame high enough to get the front wheels off the ground about 1”. I placed Lynx levelers under my front jacks so the jacks contacted the levelers after traveling about 1”. Some may say this isn’t safe…I think it is as safe as jack stands. I do it my way…you do it yours!
• 2 medium size C-clamps.
• A deep 15/16” socket and healthy impact wrench…or a breaker bar and big muscles…or all the above and a good cheater bar to go on the breaker bar.
• Penetrating oil like PB Blaster. Start using it about once a day for a few days before starting!
• 3/4” socket or wrench.
• Vise Grips
• 2 bottle jacks
• A small soft hammer. I used a brass surface hammer. The nylon hammers would do as well. A steel hammer is OK if you have a very soft tough with it.

Procedure per each side:

• Safely jack Motorhome by the frame so that front tires are ≈1” off the ground.
• Place the ignition switch in the unlocked position but not far enough to turn on the instrument panel.
• Place a C-clamp on the spring pack between the shock absorber mount and the rear of the axle. This holds the shock from expanding when the u-bolts and center bolt are removed or loosened.
• Place a C-camp on the spring pack about 7” in front of the axle. The two C-clamps hold the spring pack together while you work.
• Place a bottle jack under the spring near the front C-clamp just installed. Jack until the jack barely takes weight. It isn’t meant to lift anything…just hold the spring where you want it.
• Place a bottle jack under the axle. Jack until the jack barely takes weight. It isn’t meant to lift anything…just hold the axle where you want it.
• Remove the 4 nuts on the U-bolts. It is okay of the spring lifts off the axle. If it starts to lift more than ≈1”, jack the axle a little to maintain that distance.
• Tap the bottoms of the U-bolts with the soft hammer to push them up. Remove the front U-bolt completely, the rear can be left with the bottom of the bolts flush with the axle.
• Remove the cap from the top of the spring. It should lift right off.
• Clamp the vice grip onto the bolt head of the center bolt that is visible on the bottom side of the springs pack between the spring pack and the axle.
• Use the 3/4” socket/wrench to loosen the spring bolt enough to slide the alignment wedge in above the existing wedge.
• While being careful to not allow the alignment wedges to rotate tighten the center bolt. I didn’t torque this bolt. I just got it really tight with an 8” long wrench. The same wrench I took it off with.
• Re-install the cap on top of the spring.
• Re-install the U-bolts and tap them down until you can install the washers and nuts. The u-bolts may be slightly wider across than the holes they go in. The bolts are springy. You have to squeeze them a little get them started in the hole.
• Start tightening the U-bolt nuts. The head of the center bolt must go into the hole in the spring. The axle may have moved a little bit so that the bolt and the hole don’t line up. I used a ratchet strap to pull the axle into position.
• Going from one nut to another tighten the u-bolts nuts. Torque to 140 ft/lbs.
• Take out the jacks, remove the C-clamps.
• Rinse and repeat for the other side!
• Lower Motorhome.

At this point I measured the Caster Angle again. See pictures 4 and 5. I got 6° on the right side and 5.6° on the left. I went for a test drive of about 5 miles. The steering was definitely heavier at low speeds but about the same at highway speeds. There was a definite improvement to the ‘on center’ feel! Less road wander, more stability. Just what I wanted.

I returned to the shop and re-checked the torque on the u-bolts. Things had shifted enough that the torque was down to ≈100 ft/lbs. I re-torqued to 140 ft/lbs. I re-checked the caster angle. See pictures 6 and 7. Now the angles are 5.5° on the right side and 5.3° the left side.

The last picture is a shot of work in progress.

The steering wheel center will be off. Use the procedure outlined in this THREAD to re-center the wheel.

I have a ≈1000 mile trip planned for this next week. I will re-torque and measure the Caster again when I get home.

Cautions:
• The u-bolts on the back side of the axle may be too short after adding the wedges. Mine were OK.
• The center bolt may be too short after adding the wedges. It was really marginal on mine. The bolt lacked about 2 threads from coming out the top of the nut! I think that is enough in this case. Once the u-bolts are properly tightened they will keep the spring pack tight. The head of the spring bolt will still do its job of inhibiting the spring from sliding back and forth on the axle.
Everything is big and heavy. Be careful and do this at your own peril.
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2003 34' Georgetown on W20 Workhorse Chassis. UltraRV power mods. Doug Thorley Headers and MagnaFlow 12589 mufflers. Front Sumo Springs, Rear P32 Sumo Springs, UltraRV Track Bar.
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Old 05-10-2021, 09:50 PM   #47
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Nice work, YD, and great that you documented it for everyone!

Now let me pass along something that helped me even more than the caster change, which may or may not be applicable to you depending on your current settings.

I mentioned a few posts ago how much improved my coach is after the caster change, plus all the other incremental improvements made over the last year or so. Despite that, we're half way through a month long trip from Arizona to the Oregon coast, and on the narrow, twisty costal roads I still felt that there was too much on-center slop. Since our W-series steering boxes are not adjustable, I did the one thing I hadn't tried yet… increased the front toe-in. I knew from a recent alignment that I had only 1/16" toe in, and previous threads have mentioned that the W-Series seem to track better with 1/4" or more. Since I can't leave things alone, I climbed under my moho at a campground and gave the tie rod half turn to increase the toe. I had no way to measure the result, but estimated (based on earlier threads here that claim 1/2" per full turn) that I added around 1/4", so I'm probably at about 5/16" now.

I figured if I didn't like it I could always change it back at the next campground, but it's been just what was needed. The rig tracks great, and It feels as if bump steer is improved as well. Once I get home I'll measure it and see how much toe I really have.

The downside to increasing toe-in might be worsened tire wear, but since motorhome tires age out long before they wear out, I consider that a non-issue unless you take it to extremes.

Of course these big boxes are always going to get pushed around by strong winds somewhat, but it's a much more relaxing drive now and I'm very happy the results.
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Old 05-10-2021, 10:17 PM   #48
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Glad to see that you guys are finally getting the castor dialed in to where it wants to track straight ahead.

Adding castor is the simplest, cheapest, and easiest way to improve these rigs.
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Old 05-11-2021, 09:33 AM   #49
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Morning Cam, I hope your trip is going well. I'm glad to see that you still have to get dirty occasionally by crawling around under your MH! I may be crawling around under mine during this trip. I never drove the MH again after re-centering the steering wheel. It may need a little tweak!

I looked at your alignment numbers from the alignment shop. Your original Toe was set to +3/16" Total. The alignment shop reset this to +1/16". Maybe they added to your symptom instead of subtracting from it. It sounds like you are going more toward getting it back to the original setting.

My original measurement of my Toe using a tape measure was +3/16" Total. I had no way to generate a Left/Right individual Toe value and I don't think it is relevant to a solid axle anyway.

I will get the DW to help me measure the Toe again to verify the value. I was in somewhat of a hurry on the last measurement!

Norman, thanks for your comments. Your years of experience have value in this conversation. I looked up drag links for Peterbilt trucks. I see where you can buy adjustable links. However, once you get the Caster set correctly I can see no reason to change it or the steering wheel center for the rest of the life of the truck!
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Old 05-12-2021, 11:33 AM   #50
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Yeloduster - Great write up on your project. I too have been wanting to add some caster to my rig. In reading through your post, I had a couple of questions that you might be able to answer.

First, it seems to me that the bottle jack under the front of the springs shouldn't be necessary. I guess I'm thinking with the front tires off the ground, the springs are fully extended. I do see the need to hold the shock up somehow as it will continue to expand since its gas charged. I think a large heavy duty zip tie could be used to cinch the shock up in position and prevent movement as well, eliminating the use of bottle jacks completely.

Second, since the shims are slotted, why is it necessary to completely remove the U-bolts? It would seem that as you loosen the bolts, the axle will (should) tend to drop allowing clearance at the spring mount in which to slide the slotted shim. Then just tighten everything back up.

Thanks for taking the time to document your project for the rest of us.

jt
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Old 05-12-2021, 06:07 PM   #51
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Hi JT,

I had the bottle jacks so I used them. The one under the spring may not be necessary but the one under the axle is. You need to control the axle relative to the spring, then when the shim is in place you need to close the gap so that you can get the u-bolts started.

Your question on removing the u-bolts. The u-bolts secure a cap on top of the spring pack. That cap covers the nut on the spring bolt/centering bolt. The u-bolts don't hold the spring pack together, the spring bolt does. You must loosen it enough to get the new shim in place. The spring bolt goes through the spring pack and the head of the bolt fits into a hole on the axle to keep the axle from sliding on the spring. I used a C-clamp to keep the shock mount in place. I suppose a big zip tie could do this as well.

I hope this answers your questions.
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Old 05-12-2021, 07:58 PM   #52
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Thanks for your reply. That makes perfect sense.
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Old 05-21-2021, 06:36 PM   #53
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Alignment shim installation result

The 1000 mile trip is behind me. I traveled everything from dirt desert roads to narrow winding bumpy asphalt roads to glass smooth interstate. I experienced strong head winds, tail winds, side winds and lots of gusty winds. The suspension on my MH got a good work out!

I'm happy to report that the addition of the alignment shims did exactly as I hoped they would. They took the vague on center steering away and made driving a straight line much easier.

Long ago I report on the forum that I thought my W20 steered and handled pretty well. I did have some things that I hoped I could make better. To that end I added front Sumo Springs hoping to improve driving in side wind. That worked pretty well so I added REAR P32 Sumo Springs. Then I added a rear track bar.

The front Sumos helped a little. The rear Sumos helped a little as well but also introduced a tendency to oversteer. The oversteer made it difficult to maintain a line while in a curve. It would oversteer requiring backing off on the steering, that was always a little too much so I ended up sawing the wheel a little in corners. I DON'T LIKE THAT! I added the rear track bar to combat the oversteer. It helped some but the oversteer is still there.

In summary I have done 4 things to the motorhome chassis to improve driving:
  • Added front Sumo Springs
  • Added rear Sumo Springs
  • Added rear track bar
  • Added shims to the front spring pack to increase caster to ≈ +5.5°.

The caster change resulted in the biggest positive change. I've decided that the Rear Sumo Springs added more negative than positive. My next and probably last suspension change will be to either cut the rear Sumo Springs so they are shorter or remove them and go back to the original bump stops.

I'll let you know what I decide to do about the rear Sumo Springs.
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Old 05-21-2021, 08:02 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloduster View Post
The 1000 mile trip is behind me. I traveled everything from dirt desert roads to narrow winding bumpy asphalt roads to glass smooth interstate. I experienced strong head winds, tail winds, side winds and lots of gusty winds. The suspension on my MH got a good work out!



I'm happy to report that the addition of the alignment shims did exactly as I hoped they would. They took the vague on center steering away and made driving a straight line much easier.



Long ago I report on the forum that I thought my W20 steered and handled pretty well. I did have some things that I hoped I could make better. To that end I added front Sumo Springs hoping to improve driving in side wind. That worked pretty well so I added REAR P32 Sumo Springs. Then I added a rear track bar.



The front Sumos helped a little. The rear Sumos helped a little as well but also introduced a tendency to oversteer. The oversteer made it difficult to maintain a line while in a curve. It would oversteer requiring backing off on the steering, that was always a little too much so I ended up sawing the wheel a little in corners. I DON'T LIKE THAT! I added the rear track bar to combat the oversteer. It helped some but the oversteer is still there.



In summary I have done 4 things to the motorhome chassis to improve driving:


  • Added front Sumo Springs
  • Added rear Sumo Springs
  • Added rear track bar
  • Added shims to the front spring pack to increase caster to ≈ +5.5°.



The caster change resulted in the biggest positive change. I've decided that the Rear Sumo Springs added more negative than positive. My next and probably last suspension change will be to either cut the rear Sumo Springs so they are shorter or remove them and go back to the original bump stops.



I'll let you know what I decide to do about the rear Sumo Springs.


Mine has always wandered and felt loose. The worst thing I had was a bad tail wag as semis passed. I added a rear track bar and that corrected that issue by 90% or so. I’ll look forward to seeing what some additional caster will do.
jt
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Old 05-21-2021, 08:16 PM   #55
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Great that your steering slop is gone, YD. Mine is much better, but still not perfect. I haven't experienced that oversteer condition you describe-- at least not since I added a rear trac bar-- but I'm interested in what you find. Have you ever checked your rear axle alignment?

We're hunkered down in central Utah right now due to 40-50 mph winds. I didn't drive in anything like that, but I'm pretty sure we had some constant 20+ mph winds with 30-35 mph gusts before we decided to stop. While things were never scary, it's still a tiring drive when the winds get that high. Cedar City, just south of here, hit 58 mph today, so I'm glad to be off the road.

While I was sitting here twiddling my thumbs I took advantage of the park's wifi and ordered a front sway bar... the only suspension gizmo that I don't already have. I know I'll never be able to drive in 30 mph winds comfortably, but I'd like to improve the side-to-side roll in turns. If it helps crosswind performance too, so much the better. It's only money, after all.
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Old 05-22-2021, 07:00 AM   #56
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Cam, Sorry that the wind is affecting your travels. I was stuck in Douglas, WY once waiting for the wind to subside. I empathize with your plight.

In answer to your question, nope, haven't checked the thrust angle. The method put forth in the video you referenced is difficult or impossible to do because the MH body gets in the way. I may get back to that after resolving the Sumo oversteer issue.

The Sumo oversteer issue is pretty cut and dried. I didn't have any oversteer until I put on the rear Sumos and then I did. I then tried to cover the oversteer by doing other things like adding the rear track bar. It's time to address the issue directly.

You cut the length on your rear Sumos. How much did you take off? Is there any weight on the Sumos when the MH is at rest?
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