RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×
RV Trip Planning Discussions

Go Back   iRV2 Forums > THE CHASSIS CLUB FORUMS > Workhorse and Chevrolet Chassis Motorhome Forum
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-19-2020, 12:33 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
yeloduster's Avatar
 
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 712
Workhorse W series caster

My 2003 W20 has wedges between the front axle and the spring to adjust caster. Are these wedges installed at the factory or were they added later by an alignment shop?

Thanks
__________________
2003 34' Georgetown on W20 Workhorse Chassis. UltraRV power mods. Front Sumo Springs, Rear P32 Sumo Springs, UltraRV Track Bar.
1998 Jeep Toad.
yeloduster is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 10-19-2020, 07:10 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
edgray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Madison, MS
Posts: 9,086
I don’t think WCC added shims during assembly, but am not sure. I’ve always thought that shims were added by an alignment shop, if needed to increase caster higher than “factory” when trying to improve tracking.
edgray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2020, 07:44 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
yeloduster's Avatar
 
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 712
Thanks Ed,

My W20 has wedges. I was curious if that was a factory thing or an after sales alignment. I will get a reading on the caster.

Do you know what the caster was from the factory?

Thanks again for any help you might be able to give.

Larry
__________________
2003 34' Georgetown on W20 Workhorse Chassis. UltraRV power mods. Front Sumo Springs, Rear P32 Sumo Springs, UltraRV Track Bar.
1998 Jeep Toad.
yeloduster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2020, 07:45 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
GREGORYJ's Avatar
 
National RV Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lac Du Bonnet, Manitoba
Posts: 630
I believe they are installed at the factory, both W22 National RV's I've had came with what looked like they same shims. In fact I just measured them today tiring to see how many degrees of castor they added the the front end.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP2676a_resize.jpg
Views:	11
Size:	214.9 KB
ID:	305322  
__________________
Ellen & Greg
08 National Dolphin DL-35Ci, RoadMaster Rear Sway Bar, Rear Trac Bar, Koni Shocks Front,
Workhorse W22, Kelderman Air Ride, Towing 08 Smart Car
GREGORYJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2020, 08:23 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
edgray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Madison, MS
Posts: 9,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloduster View Post
Thanks Ed,

My W20 has wedges. I was curious if that was a factory thing or an after sales alignment. I will get a reading on the caster.

Do you know what the caster was from the factory?

Thanks again for any help you might be able to give.

Larry

Sorry, but I don't know. I remember there are quite a few threads here a while back about increasing the caster by 5-6 degrees, but maybe that was on some ill-handling W-24s, I can't remember. Maybe a search through Google will lead you to them, if the search function here won't.



Hopefully some other members here have better memory than me, I just remember caster being discussed before.
MAYBE you can find some info HERE: Workhorse Technical Info


Good luck!
edgray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2020, 12:24 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
CamJam1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Arizona
Posts: 747
Mine has wedges, but I don't remember which side of the axle they are on.
__________________
2004 National Dolphin LX 6320, W-22, 8.1, Allison 1000, Front/rear Trac Bars, Hellwig Rear Anti-sway Bar, Sumo Springs, Roadmaster Reflex Steering Stabilizer, 2005 PT Cruiser Toad
CamJam1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2020, 12:44 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
CamJam1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Arizona
Posts: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREGORYJ View Post
I believe they are installed at the factory, both W22 National RV's I've had came with what looked like they same shims. In fact I just measured them today tiring to see how many degrees of castor they added the the front end.
Greg, if the front of the coach is to the left in your photo, then that's increasing the negative caster, which is the opposite of what I would expect. Think of a motorcycle with extended forks (a "chopper") as being extreme positive caster. Positive caster is what we need to provide added stability, reduce tendency to wander and improve self-centering.

I seem to remember that my W-22 is this way too, though I won't know for certain until later today as I will be visiting the storage yard.

Of course, knowing the angle of the wedge still doesn't tell us the overall caster angle. We don't know the angles of all the other parts in the suspension.

I used to do my own alignments on my SCCA race cars and still have the marks on my garage floor for properly adjusting caster. Unfortunately, my moho won't fit in the garage and my old caster level won't work on 22.5" wheels anyway.
__________________
2004 National Dolphin LX 6320, W-22, 8.1, Allison 1000, Front/rear Trac Bars, Hellwig Rear Anti-sway Bar, Sumo Springs, Roadmaster Reflex Steering Stabilizer, 2005 PT Cruiser Toad
CamJam1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2020, 08:39 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
GREGORYJ's Avatar
 
National RV Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lac Du Bonnet, Manitoba
Posts: 630
CamJam1, I never had a wheel alignment done so I can't say what the overall castor angle might be which could very likely be different than the wedge's angle. The front of the RV is to the right side of the photo. The shock is towards the rear, so this is a conventional positive castor angle set up. It would be interesting to know if during the coach builder's mass production of say a certain model, the same size of wedge was installed in maybe in all the Workhorse W22 chassis units.
There is no spec given for castor in the manual, it just says "not adjustable".
__________________
Ellen & Greg
08 National Dolphin DL-35Ci, RoadMaster Rear Sway Bar, Rear Trac Bar, Koni Shocks Front,
Workhorse W22, Kelderman Air Ride, Towing 08 Smart Car
GREGORYJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2020, 08:46 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
CJ7365's Avatar
 
Tiffin Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Southern NM
Posts: 2,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREGORYJ View Post
CamJam1, I never had a wheel alignment done so I can't say what the overall castor angle might be which could very likely be different than the wedge's angle. The front of the RV is to the right side of the photo. The shock is towards the rear, so this is a conventional positive castor angle set up. It would be interesting to know if during mass production, this dimension of wedge was installed in all the Workhorse chassis or maybe in all the Workhorse W22 chassis, and castor angle was never measured for final front wheel adjustment, that is, only the toe in/out was adjusted. In other words, do all W22's have this identical set of castor angle wedges and Workhorse considered this an optimum over all castor set up for all units.
I have a W22 and went out and took a look, I have the wedges, although I did not take any measurements, they are comparable to yours.
__________________
2005 Tiffin Allegro Bay 37DB
W22 Workhorse Chassis 8.1 Flat Towing a 82 Jeep CJ7
CJ7365 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2020, 10:47 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
CamJam1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Arizona
Posts: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREGORYJ View Post
CamJam1, I never had a wheel alignment done so I can't say what the overall castor angle might be which could very likely be different than the wedge's angle. The front of the RV is to the right side of the photo. The shock is towards the rear, so this is a conventional positive castor angle set up. It would be interesting to know if during the coach builder's mass production of say a certain model, the same size of wedge was installed in maybe in all the Workhorse W22 chassis units.
There is no spec given for castor in the manual, it just says "not adjustable".
Ok, that makes sense then. I didn't have my MH here to be able to go look. I forgot to look at my wedges when I was at the yard today, but I'm going back tomorrow. I'm in the process of moving my generator fuel pump toward the rear of the coach while trying to fix a vapor lock problem.
__________________
2004 National Dolphin LX 6320, W-22, 8.1, Allison 1000, Front/rear Trac Bars, Hellwig Rear Anti-sway Bar, Sumo Springs, Roadmaster Reflex Steering Stabilizer, 2005 PT Cruiser Toad
CamJam1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2020, 09:08 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
yeloduster's Avatar
 
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 712
I contacted Brazel's RV and asked some questions about the original setup for caster alignment.

I got several things from their responses:
  1. W Series Chassis come from the factory with one caster wedge installed on each side.
  2. Initial caster measurement of a factory stock W Series is approximately 2.5°-3.5°
  3. Wedges deflect the springs a small amount when the weight of the coach is setting on the suspension. This changes the caster by about 1° or a little less so adding a 3° wedge results in additional caster of about 2±°.
  4. When Brazel's performs an alignment they leave the factory wedge in place and add the appropriate amount to attain 5°±.
  5. Rarely is a longer spring center bolt required.
  6. If suspension modifications such as Roadmaster Reflex steering stabilizer have been performed longer U-Bolts may be required.

Cam posted a measurement of the wedges on his W22 and said the wedge was approximately 3.3°. All the above leads me to the conclusion that the front axle is manufactured with approximately 90° ± ≈.5° angle between the machined springs pads and the king pin bore. Workhorse factory added an ≈3.5° wedge yielding a caster of ≈2.5°-3.5°.

Based on that I think I can measure my caster with a certain amount of precision by placing a caster protractor on the machined springs pads on the axle right next to the spring. I know I have one wedge on each side of my W20. From that I presume it is factory stock. If my measurement yields 2°-4° I can assume that the measurement is valid. I might add my own wedges to the springs...in the spring...after the thaw...when the sunshines again!!!!
__________________
2003 34' Georgetown on W20 Workhorse Chassis. UltraRV power mods. Front Sumo Springs, Rear P32 Sumo Springs, UltraRV Track Bar.
1998 Jeep Toad.
yeloduster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2020, 11:05 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
edgray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Madison, MS
Posts: 9,086
yeloduster: THANK YOU ! That is one of the most informative posts I've ever seen. I appreciate your investigation to ascertain the facts and posting them so others can benefit. You da man!
edgray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2020, 12:54 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
CamJam1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Arizona
Posts: 747
Yes, very informative. One correction, in that it was Greg who provided the wedge measurement.

I wonder if adjusting caster affects toe? I know it does on cars with strut rods, like Ford Falcons, Mustangs, and AMC's, but I'm not sure with a king-pin arrangement, which is more like an old covered wagon.

If you do go ahead and add the wedges, it should be easy to confirm how much caster you've added by taking before and after measurements with a digital level. Just find a vertical flat spot on the axle or upright to take your readings.
__________________
2004 National Dolphin LX 6320, W-22, 8.1, Allison 1000, Front/rear Trac Bars, Hellwig Rear Anti-sway Bar, Sumo Springs, Roadmaster Reflex Steering Stabilizer, 2005 PT Cruiser Toad
CamJam1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2020, 06:33 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
yeloduster's Avatar
 
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 712
Cam, sorry for my confusion! It was a senior moment!

Thousands of Jeep DYI guys including myself have twiddled the caster on our Jeeps by adjusting the relative length of the upper and lower control arms. It doesn't affect the toe but it might affect the steering wheel center.

That is an adjustment you can make by adjusting the length of the drag link that connects the pitman arm to the tie rod.
__________________
2003 34' Georgetown on W20 Workhorse Chassis. UltraRV power mods. Front Sumo Springs, Rear P32 Sumo Springs, UltraRV Track Bar.
1998 Jeep Toad.
yeloduster is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
workhorse



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2008 Winnebago Destination Series M-37G-W or 2006 Allegro Bay Series M-37DB Workhorse jrt13 iRV2.com General Discussion 4 11-05-2016 07:40 PM
Caster change.... Davel Workhorse and Chevrolet Chassis Motorhome Forum 3 10-22-2010 10:00 PM
Power Caster NMBeemercouple Travel Trailer Discussion 2 03-24-2010 09:44 AM
NEWAY IFS caster & camber adjustments snoopy2 Freightliner Motorhome Chassis Forum 2 09-18-2009 12:41 PM
Jeep Wrangler Caster Setting Mike Canter Toads and Motorhome Related Towing 12 01-24-2009 11:26 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.