2004 E-450 Brake Calipers sticking dragging

[cb1000rider]

2005 Jayco Granite Ridge on a 2004 Ford E450 chassis.
About 2 months ago, we went on a small trip locally. About 20 miles in, I could smell burning brake pad. Stopped the RV, found that the right front caliper was stuck and smoking up the pad. Pulled the wheel, freed the caliper and limped home.

That night, I replaced both calipers with replacements from AutoZone. I believe the brand of calipers was "ACarDone". Replaced the pads and brake fluid also. That seemed to resolve it.

Since, I've noticed that both front calipers drag more than I'd like. Particularly after some hilly driving, I pull into the driveway and the RV definitely won't "roll" and is under light braking. I had it looked at by NTB when I had tires replaced, they had to put a bar on it to turn the front rotors... They opened the bleed valve - no fluid came out (so we know it isn't the lines). They said it was "fine" and would free up on the road.

Apparently Ford put Phenolic pistons in these brake calipers - and I see a lot of posts about sticking brakes and most blame "swelling" of the plastic pistons...

Then I read this, that says don't replace plastic with steel: http://24.97.101.13/downloads/Phenolic_vs_steel.pdf


I think my two options are:
1) Take it to Ford, which is going to cost some money and will be back to original equipment calipers.
2) Replace the front brake calipers again - with something that has steel pistons.


Suggestions? Same experiences?

[TeJay]

I have never been a fan of Auto Zone. When buying rebuilt parts or assembly's they are not all the same. Also when buying pads the same goes. I taught Automotive Shop in HS for 35 years and settled on NAPA for most all of my parts. They have a National reputation to deal with and I always found that their break stuff was equal to or better than OEM.

I have also replaced many phenolic pistons with metal with good results. Check with NAPA on your replacement calipers. Tell the guy you want good calipers and OEM or better pads. Also have your rotors machined, especially if there seem to be some grooves in the rotors.

Also Google the phrase "Brake burnishing" and follow the recommendations.

I also read your link on not replacing phenolic with steel and take it with a grain of salt. I'd need more information from more reliable sources before I'd change my mind. Anything is possible so I'll never say never.

TeJay

[Texastbird]

I've had a brake hose on the front of a car fail internally which held pressure on the caliper. The rubber that was broke loose acted like a check valve. I thought it was a sticky caliper at first. Something to think about even though the "experts" said they were ok.

[cb1000rider]

I've read that the hoses can degrade (inside) and you can't tell. Note, while these brakes bind, we loosened the bleed valve on the caliper - no big release of pressure... So I don't think it's the hoses or the master check valve.

I'm probably going to drag it down to Ford and have it checked over for more than brakes, I'm about to drive it 3k miles in August and it's a !@#@! to have these things break down, especially in August when you're on a schedule.

I should correct - Auto Zone couldn't get me the right parts.. I bought these calipers at O'Reilly.. I did buy the best pads they had to go with the calipers. I'd rather pay a little more for the parts and have to do the job once.

[TeJay]

cb1000rider,

What the poster said about flexible brake lines deteriorating from the inside is correct. A fairly simple way to check is with the engine running have someone step on the brakes while you grab each flexible line. When the brake is depressed you should feel the hose get hard and become less flexible all along it's length. When the pedal is released it should get softer all along its length. If there is an internal break acting like a check valve you should notice something different from side to side. Because these types of faults happen infrequently most technicians are not familiar with it and often miss the diagnosis.

Your unit is an 04. It probably wouldn't hurt to replace those flexible hoses all around (there's one on each front side and one in the back about mid differential) and do a fluid flush as well. That's called PM (preventative maintenance) and not a bad idea to avoid problems in the future.

I'd use NAPA (probably gates made) or OEM parts for the quality. Had a technician tell me that even their shop always bought the dealer made timing belts because of the extended life and quality.

Many, many years ago I bought a "Y"- pipe for an exhaust change, back when we did exhausts, and they ordered the wrong pipe. So I took it back to the parts store and got the correct pipe. When I picked up the correct pipe it was at least 1/2 again as heavy. When I asked why the difference in weight he said, "It meets OEM specs and is a lot thicker." That's when I realized that most replacement exhausts never seemed to last nearly as long as the original. My conclusion is, "Sometimes OEM which costs more maybe is a better deal (quality) than standard aftermarket parts."

Also a good decision on the pads. That will never hurt you but buying cheap may/will.

TeJay

[cb1000rider]

TeJay,

Thanks for the reply. And the info on the hoses - I didn't know of a good way to check, but that makes sense.

I've already flushed the fluid.. And yes, I should have done the lines when I replaced the calipers the first time. I *think* I just got crap-quality calipers, as the lines aren't holding the pressure per the relief valve and I've still got some stick issues.

If I was going to do it again myself, I'd definitely use a caliper with a metal piston. I'd trade off some braking in high temperature conditions, but this caliper sticking is no good...

Right now, I'm going to let Ford deal with it (and guarantee the results).... I'm still working, so when I need to use this thing, I need it to work - I don't have the luxury of being able to take my time on the road.

[cb1000rider]

FYI - Ford estimate is $1200. They wanted to "lube" the front calipers and flush the brake system. I told them to replace the front calipers and brake hardware front/rear. I'm told that $1200 covers a "complete" brake job, which it better... turning rotors, new pads, complete hardware all the way around and new rotors in front.

If I wasn't dependent upon this fix to be correct, I'd replace the calipers again with steel pistons versions.

[TeJay]

If they perform the repairs correctly and if I understand your post, if the complete repair is the same with changing the front rotors and machining the rears with new calipers and pads your good to go. If they use a caliper with the phenolic piston and it sticks it's on them.

Some question the machining of the rotors. The rotor thickness is necessary for heat absorption and dissipation. When the rotor gets to thin (or below minimum specs) it can't do it's job. One proper machining will not reduce the thickness very much. It's when a rotor is scored deep and a lot of metal is removed that you get into trouble. That's why I stated, "Repairs correctly."

TeJay

[cb1000rider]

The Ford pistons are phenolic. Clearly there are some issues there, but not on every vehicle. I've read Ford TSBs on these big trucks related to brake fade (boiling fluid) that say the solution is to move to phenolic pistons.

I could rebuilt it myself (again) - this time with metal piston calipers, but with a 3k mile trip planned, I want one butt to kick (so to speak) on the brakes. Rear brakes, which look pretty crispy will be taken apart, lubed, new hardware, etc.

I assume that Ford knows when to replace a rotor and when to turn one... But I'll probably stick a caliper on it anyway after their done.

[TeJay]

cb,
One can assume they know what they are doing. If the rotor is to thin they'll want to sell you new rotors so yes, we are probably correct. I think you could ask them to tell you how close the rotors thickness was to minimum size and you won't offend anybody.

I bought a 1995 Isuzu pick-up almost new. It had about 4,000 miles on it. The rotors were warped (pedal pulsation) so I machined them. That fixed the problem but it came back in about 4-6K miles. So I did it again. I continued machining them every 6-10-K miles until at about 50,000 they stopped warping. I don't know what it was with that cast iron but it just took forever to finally settle down. I drove it for another 40,000 miles with no problems then sold it.

Most hot rod engine builders also preferred finding a seasoned cast block that was heated enough times to allow the iron to equalize and become more stable.

TeJay

[cb1000rider]

I've had one or two cars that had a tendency to warp rotors.. I remember one was the 87-93 mustang, which was pretty underbraked out of the factory.

Definitely had different results with different quality of rotors.

It's crazy though, I can get 70k miles out of factory brakes on a Civic.

And I've purchased aftermarket drums that were out of round from the box...

[TeJay]

cb,
Thought you might like to know this info.

Here's the best answer to the cast iron situation. Several years ago I got a CD from NAPA concerning brakes. It was one of the best teaching CD's that I had for brakes. The pictures and illustrations were great. It was not filled with NAPA adds but simply a lot of great useful up to date information. I learned a lot about brakes.

One area that was an eye opener for me was the differences in quality of cast iron. They talked about long and short molecules of carbon. The long ones were better. It's similar to carbide cutters that are referred to as micro-grain carbide which is much better than standard. They will hold an edge longer. Anyway cast iron can be cheaply poured by not paying attention to the impurities and not adding what needs to be added.

The second eye opener had to do with vented rotors. The metal pads located inside the vented rotors are very unique and often very specific to certain cars. The pads may be shaped different or spaced different for reasons of strength, noise abatement, and cooling. Many times a brake manufacturer has to change the number of pads their position and locations to eliminate issues for that particular sized and weight rotor. Some re-manufacturers don't always pay attention to those specific unique designs. They cut corners by using a cheaper cast iron and they skip designs that to them don't need to be there just so they can save a buck. You may buy a rotor that fits your vehicle but does not have all the features that were designed into the OEM part. They will work but may cause issues earlier than an OEM rotor might.

If you buy a rotor/drum from NAPA they may list several options. They are in business and if the best OEM rotor costs $75 and the price shocks you they will have one that is cheaper so you don't leave. That is also very true for their lines of brake shoes and pads. The Zone did guarantee their pads for life. What they don't tell you is that they are so hard they will often times wear your rotors.

One time I swapped an exhaust Y-pipe because they got the incorrect one. The difference in weight was about double. I asked why and was told that one pipe was made to OEM specs and the other was not. Thicker steel verses thinner steel. Sometimes you just have to pay for better quality stuff and I don't ever cut corners on brake parts.

TeJay

[cb1000rider]

Well, Ford didn't work out as planned. Or as planned for me.
After a "99" point inspection, we were fixing 3 things:
1) Brakes - front and rear. They were under direction from me to replace the front calipers, complete brake job all the way around (new hardware) and advise me on the condition of the rear, if they warranted replacement.
2) Rear Diff cover was leaking (knew this going in). Why fixing this costs more than a normal diff service, I dunno, but I was having it fixed for convenience.
3) Radiator flush - it's time.

I got the standard "you need a throttle body cleaning" and "dirty air filter".
The air filter had 5k on it. Decline. I doubt they even looked.
No idea on the throttle body cleaning, but it's easy enough to do. You get this everywhere, so I wonder if they look. Decline.


My bill was charged what I expected, about 1000 in labor and $600 in parts / materials.

They didn't do the radiator. Wasn't charged for it, but they didn't do it. I can live with that.

I walk out to the truck and immediately get under it. Front calipers and hardware look new. Rear calipers look great with new seals. The front rotors were not turned (this was specifically discussed as part of a $1k+ brake job). I can't see the rear rotors. Back to service. I asked why I'm looking at unturned rotors on a brake job that took between 9-10 hours. About 50% of the time is in dealing with the rotors, at least if I'm doing it...

Service adviser says he'll check. Goes to the back, comes back 10 minutes later saying that their lathe was down and that he's sorry, but there isn't anything he can do at this point I can take it home or leave it. I told him that those were not "OK" options. Sends me to the service manager.

Service manager listens to why this isn't OK and why I'm not happy about being charged for 9-10 hours of labor on a brake job that they did 50% of the labor on (I know it's "book time"). I told him to discount it or I'll send him a bill for having the same work done locally. He said he'd rather "fix it right". I told him that I'd need to make another 2.5 hour round trip down. He offers to cover the expense of my fuel (I drive a hybrid, about $15). I told him that it was wasting my time that I care about, not the fuel cost.

I left it with them. I told the to service the radiator and do a state inspection on their dime - that gets some of my time back and is worth about $125 retail.

I'll probably flame them on a review, but really..... It's irresponsible and I know that 99/100 customers won't even check.

There are a bunch of other cars/trucks there that are getting brake jobs on the same old un-surfaced rotors.

Likely some mechanic is making a bad decision. I don't think it's dishonest - just lazy...

[TeJay]

cb,
You handled that very well my friend. I am impressed with you diplomacy and patience. I would have come unglued.

Performing a disc brake job without machining the rotors is like doing an oil change without changing the filter. Stupid, stupid. There lathe was down!!! WOW !! A shop with only one lathe. They either must not do many brake jobs or they never machine the rotors. Some on here don't agree with me but I always, always machined rotors when changing pads. Here's the reason. I realize that you know this so I'm explaining it for those that don't.

Brakes work because two surfaces are rubbing together to create friction so the energy of motion can be turned into heat energy. The pads are NEW and FLAT. The rotors are not new and not flat and will have small irregularities that may only be determined by measuring with a micrometer. Secondly, during the BURNISHING process (look it up) pad material is transferred to the rotor surface. The rotor surface has to be fresh, clean and flat for proper burnishing to take place. If the rotor is not perfectly flat the two surfaces won't meet 100% and that's not good. If that process does is not performed properly you will never achieve 100% braking from that pad and rotor combination. These things have been proven during all kinds of testing. They are not just my ideas.

When you say they are not dishonest what about the fact that they charged you flat rate, which should include machining and did not tell you that they did not machine the rotors?? They knew and did not tell you. They new the lathe was broken, or at least they should have known. If they didn't know then they don't consider the lathe an important part of their operation. Their workmanship is shoddy at best.


With all the other half truths they told you I would NEVER use or recommend them to anybody. You know you mechanical stuff. I'd have a sit down with the service manage and the owner. I am pretty good friends with our local CW GM. We've got our WBGO (under warranty) slated for some slide and window repairs. I was not happy with the lack of notification on the progress so I talked to the GM. He called in the service manager who apologized and thanked me for alerting him to what wasn't happening. The GM told me that they have about 150 service items going through the shop every day. Every morning the 10 highest priority accounts (waiting for parts) are called by the office to let the customer know the status of their repair.

Who knows!! Maybe the do want to know how they are doing and maybe they don't. It might b worth a try.

Please keep us informed as you have been doing. Many of us are interested in seeing that you get the work done properly.

TeJay