Adding anti-sway

[marjoa]

Originally Posted by fcbbob15

I then tried Safety Steer but could never get it truly centered.
I will now put the Safety Steer back on and get it centered.

Yeah I had a similar problem when I installed my Safe-T-Plus. But, later on I had our coach aligned in Florida and then they readjusted the Safe-T-Plus and showed me the proper way to do it. It was a slightly different procedure than what the original directions stated. Our coach now handles great and tires wear evenly.

I did a video explaining everything here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhagvT3pPWE&t=7s

[CathedralCub]

My $0.02: CHF helped a little on my F53, but replaced front sway with a big Roadmaster unit and added a rear sway bar and track bar. Night and day handling difference. I went oversize on my rear sway bar addition (for the next weight class but manufacturer said it would fit) for an extra like $75.00 , worked great!

[blueridge-fl]

Originally Posted by tconn308

thanks everyone, I read up on the CHF and watched some video's and I think will try that first, also will get an Alignment.

Pretty sure i am talked out of the $1500 in new sway bars, and while I am at it, i will change the bushings to polyurethane, going to see if i can find them on Amazon...

We have a 2018 Vista 32YE and we ended up putting a roadmaster anti-sway bar on the rear and did the CHF using Tejay's plates set to CHF+1 on the front. This combination was an enormous improvement over the stock suspension. Very little sway on uneven roads, and greatly reduced truck push. The rear anti-sway bar is added in addition to the existing sway bar so it is a big step up in sway control compared to rear CHF. We also got an alignment done at a good truck chassis place and it made a surprisingly big improvement in how well the RV tracked going down the road.

[FLRosebud]

Originally Posted by TeJay

Keep in mind the anti-sway bars (SB) stabilizer bars) are not designed to control lateral movement but SWAY. Because the RV does not sway as much you feel like the back and forth wandering is better and it probably is to some extent.

Two other items will reduce the lateral movement more significantly: A rear track bar (TB). You already have a front TB. That ties the frame and leaf spring looseness together. A front steering stabilizer shock with coil spring. The shock will dampen sudden wind gusts while the spring keeps the steering wheel centered. There are basically two kinds. Some have an internal spring and the RSSA has an external spring. We have the RSSA by Road Master and it was easy to center and completed the final solution for wind gusts. 98% of the driving time is very relaxed even on normal windy days. Heavy windy days one has to be alert but it's still relaxed.

Another change would be better shocks. Shocks by their very design to dampen movement will help with sway and lateral movement. When the RV moves laterally you adjust by turning the steering wheel to center the RV. Depending how much lateral movement occurs and how you control it may also cause some sway which is then controlled/reduced by the shocks.

Another way of looking at it is this. A wind gust rocks the RV at he top. The shocks will help dampen that. Some laterally or side to side movement is also created by that same wind gust. Having all the items:good shocks, TB and SB front and rear all work together. IMHO Adding a shock/spring steering stabilizer adds the final icing on the handling cake!!!

I've been following your postings over the last couple of years since we bought our first class A (a 2006 National Seabreeze LX - 33 ft with a 208" wheelbase, F53) and have been doing things one at a time as you have suggested. First weighed the MH and adjusted air pressures, CHF, alignment, front steering stabilizer, then figured out air bag pressure to get the MH level, then did a Hellwig rear sway bar (the biggest difference so far). Each one has helped, and now semi's don't blow me around like they did.

Am pleased with the results, but still have a bit of wander due to road undulations, and wind is still an issue. This past 3 or 4 months in FL have been very windy, so now that has become my main issue. No wind and I can drive 5-7 hours no problem and I'm not tired. 15-20mph winds, and by 5 hours I'm exhausted. So I'm thinking rear TB is next. Shocks are aftermarket Bilsteins about 3 years old. Because it also rides a bit hard I think a set of Koni FSD's are in my future as well. Do you have any additional thoughts?

Al

[TeJay]

Al,

Doing one at a time is a sure way of knowing if a MOD did its job. A rear TB is a definite must.

Have a friend who lives about 10 miles from us and has a 27 or 28' WBGO on the F-53 chassis. We had done a few MODS like CHF & front plates along with rear CHF and those helped but he didn't tell me they were seriously considering selling. They have a beautiful garage/work shop for storage but he has to move his side mirrors in to make it through the door. The tail end scrapes and there may be 3' of space front and rear. They couldn't go up in size.

I had made a few rear DIY TB's and told him I build one for him. We did and also installed it. When we arrived at the CG on our next WBGO club camp out he was telling everybody he had a NEW RV that TeJay bought him. The improvement was so much better they couldn't believe it. They did add a steering stabilizer and now they are very happy campers.

Every RV reacts differently to almost every MOD. There are way to many variables between makes and models to realize the same improvement. If I were to give one MOD that recognition it would be the CHF. That probably has a 90 - 95% improvement rating across the board. His unit being shorter but lighter made a BIG change in the handling.

New Koni's has also made consistent improvements for most RV'ers. I firmly believe the shocks industry does not try very hard to help the RV community. The next time you want to check for shocks call any of the suppliers and ask or check for a shock for your rig. Do they ask for the chassis weight for your RV? Also notice they often use the same shock for chassis from 18-K up to 22 or even 24K chassis. How well cab that possibly work?

For the light chassis the ride would be stiffer and conversely on the heavy chassis. So far nobody makes an adjustable shock for the F-53 chassis. Some have installed two shocks with good or decent results.

Adding another shock just might be the ticket. If that extra shock could/would be adjustable to give one some ability to not have the ride to stiff might just be one more answer.

One last idea. Your RV os a 2006 so it might be on a 2005 chassis. You may know that Ford used a Soy bean oil to make all stabilizer bar (SB) bushings. Yours should have been changed by now but if they were did that owner use the newer polyurethane bushings?? That change might have occurred in 2012 to 2015 time frame.

Ford switched over to the poly bushings on the 2012 units but if somebody changed them they may have gotten the soy bean oil replacements based on the fact they may still have been available and everybody uses the old stock first.

Our RV is a 2013 chassis and I was going to change the bushings to poly until I found out they were already poly. I did have to replace the rears because one of the stock polys had a tear on it. When I got the new bushings I compared and you can see even how poorly Fords were made. So I replaced front and rear. I can post some pics of that comparison if you'd like.

If you have not read this STICKY do so!!

"ATTENTION!!!!F-53 Owners Read"

[Harvard]

"free play in the steering" is a symptom of having too little + caster.

[TeJay]

Harvard,

"free play in the steering" is a symptom of having too little + caster.

That can be a correct statement but!! Actually there are several things than can cause what a driver feels as SW free play.

1. Worn steering parts as in king pins and tie rods.
2. Wear in the steering gear box which is not common but still possible based on the number of miles.

3. More positive caster can reduce the amount of free play as felt by the driver. WHY? It adds more front end weight which forces the steering wheel back to the center. We all drive cars. When coming out of a turn the steering wheel almost returns back to center by it self as we come out of turns. It's the effect of + caster doing it.

4. To much weight in the rear.

[FLRosebud]

TeJay;

It's interesting, I was advised by my chassis guy not to put the poly bushings in. He's a crusty old guy (78) who actually took the time to get two crawlers (is that what they call them??) and he and I spend 30 minutes under the MH. He pointed out all of the different parts. At that time 2 years ago the bushings were fine (old style) on the stock anti-sway bars and all the bolts tight. During my racing time (SCCA) we always changed the suspension bushing out to poly to tighten up things, so his comment surprised me. So at this point, maybe I first need to change out the bushings on the stock front and rear anti-sway bar, then go to the TB. I'll try and go under the MH today and take a look to confirm what condition they are in and maybe order some poly ones. (this was before I had them install the Hellwig rear anti-sway bar)

Am reading the LONG thread you started (over 400 posts....this will take a while) and it's quite informative. Another question, as I'm a bit confused about the alignment issue. Do I need maximum spec toe-in, or caster? I was planning on taking the MH in and having +4 of toe-in set, but now I'm not sure which is needed.

Al

[FLRosebud]

One more thing TeJay; I crawled under the MH this morning and it does indeed have the stock bushings, and they look pretty good, indicating as you suggested they had been changed out sometime in the past (2006 MH). So I'll be ordering a set from Eric and I'll do that first...

Al

[TeJay]

Al,

I'm not sure why the 78 year old fellow didn't like the poly?? I'm 76 and like any technology that is an improvement over the older stuff.

Since you have a racing background you understand. In order for the anti sway system to be as good as it can be you have two bushings that have to hold the SB firmly yet allow twisting. Anything less and some efficiency will result.

An analogy would be holding loosely in your hand a tennis racket, baseball bat, golf club etc, etc. You are less than efficient and errors will result. With the SB they will be less efficient. Just another example of common sense.

When we bought our 2014 RV I was willing to spend $80 to replace the new bushings until I found out they were already poly. I didn't know they were a less than decent grade of poly until I compared them.

Why not have the best installed. Maybe the new ones are poly. If they have been changed maybe they are but still if you get Eric's bushings you'll know they are the best so one less item to concern you. He also supplies some poly lube with each set of bushings.

You want your CASTER to be as positive as the technician will do. Just ask them to set it to the high end of Fords recommendations. I think it's in the +5.8 or slightly higher range.

Setting the caster more positive adds more weight keeping the wheels straight ahead as I'm sure you are aware. Before power steering was common added caster made it harder to corner. With PS on 99% of vehicles more caster isn't as big of a deal.

I believe we are at about 5.8# of caster and the RV tracks well. As far as toe my alignment tech says he set all semi's to 1/16" total toe in or 1/32" per side. When he set it he said he usually sees at least 150,000 mile on a set of steer tires.

Based on caster being the tilt of the wheel front to back it is not a tire wear angle.

I'm not an expert on alignment. Toe angle is a compromise. If the tires were set with to much toe in or out it causes excessive tire inner or outer edge wear. That makes sense. Ideally we want the tires to go straight down the road. So why create some tire wear by setting the toe in???

When weight is added to the front tires any play in the tie rods will allow the tires to turn outward. If your vehicle were set to 1/16" toed in the tires would be closer to straight ahead after the weight was added. As the tie rods wear the tires slowly begin to toe out. That takes a lot of miles.

So the trade off it this. At first your tires are tracking almost straight down the road but gradually as parts wear the toe angle changes from slightly in to centered to slightly out. We have 40,000 miles on the RV and show no tie rod edge wear.

We do have a bit of low tire pressure wear but that's OK. I'd rather have a few lbs less air for a smother ride. The tires are 7 years old and due for changing anyway. I'll get two new front tires and chance the rears when we head to FL this spring. Then change the rears after we put 2,500 more miles on them.

[FLRosebud]

Originally Posted by TeJay

Al,

I'm not sure why the 78 year old fellow didn't like the poly?? I'm 76 and like any technology that is an improvement over the older stuff.

Since you have a racing background you understand. In order for the anti sway system to be as good as it can be you have two bushings that have to hold the SB firmly yet allow twisting. Anything less and some efficiency will result.

An analogy would be holding loosely in your hand a tennis racket, baseball bat, golf club etc, etc. You are less than efficient and errors will result. With the SB they will be less efficient. Just another example of common sense.

When we bought our 2014 RV I was willing to spend $80 to replace the new bushings until I found out they were already poly. I didn't know they were a less than decent grade of poly until I compared them.

Why not have the best installed. Maybe the new ones are poly. If they have been changed maybe they are but still if you get Eric's bushings you'll know they are the best so one less item to concern you. He also supplies some poly lube with each set of bushings.

You want your CASTER to be as positive as the technician will do. Just ask them to set it to the high end of Fords recommendations. I think it's in the +5.8 or slightly higher range.

Setting the caster more positive adds more weight keeping the wheels straight ahead as I'm sure you are aware. Before power steering was common added caster made it harder to corner. With PS on 99% of vehicles more caster isn't as big of a deal.

I believe we are at about 5.8# of caster and the RV tracks well. As far as toe my alignment tech says he set all semi's to 1/16" total toe in or 1/32" per side. When he set it he said he usually sees at least 150,000 mile on a set of steer tires.

Based on caster being the tilt of the wheel front to back it is not a tire wear angle.

I'm not an expert on alignment. Toe angle is a compromise. If the tires were set with to much toe in or out it causes excessive tire inner or outer edge wear. That makes sense. Ideally we want the tires to go straight down the road. So why create some tire wear by setting the toe in???

When weight is added to the front tires any play in the tie rods will allow the tires to turn outward. If your vehicle were set to 1/16" toed in the tires would be closer to straight ahead after the weight was added. As the tie rods wear the tires slowly begin to toe out. That takes a lot of miles.

So the trade off it this. At first your tires are tracking almost straight down the road but gradually as parts wear the toe angle changes from slightly in to centered to slightly out. We have 40,000 miles on the RV and show no tie rod edge wear.

We do have a bit of low tire pressure wear but that's OK. I'd rather have a few lbs less air for a smother ride. The tires are 7 years old and due for changing anyway. I'll get two new front tires and chance the rears when we head to FL this spring. Then change the rears after we put 2,500 more miles on them.

Probably because he's stuck in his ways. He's owned this chassis shop for over 50 years, and told me he didn't like the poly because it makes cars and trucks ride harsher. While it might for cars (and did for my street cars) this is about handling on a truck. As an aside, I live in an over 55 community, and I see this attitude all the time; the old ways were always better.

Anyway, I ordered a set of the bushings from Eric, as when I went under the MH this morning I felt each bushing, and they were indeed rubber. Could easily indent the side with my thumb nail. So I'll get them installed first and take it out and see how it handles. Will probably be mid-February, as after we get home from this week out my work schedule has me hopping for the next 3 weeks.

This was the trac bar I was looking at: https://supersteerparts.com/product/...lt-3rd-member/

Looks easy enough to install in my driveway.

We'll keep sneaking up on this, and maybe one day soon we'll realize we just drove 400 miles and no butt-puckering experiences during the trip!

Al

[TeJay]

Al,

Good looking TB. I'm sure you will be happy with the results. A little pricey for my blood but that's OK as well. Not everybody has the tools to make one for under $50.

Your alignment tech may be correct on cars but I fail to see the connection. How can a firmer round bushing used to securely hold the torsion part of the SB allow or make the vehicle ride harsher??

Several have reported on the CHF thread the similar or same response. "The CHF was a great improvement but the unit road harsher." Still to this day can't see the connection. The SB only works when one side is forced to twist the bar. How does that cause harshness?? It uses the stored energy to reduce the sway.

Another look!! What about those who have replaced their front SB with a larger diameter one. Then added another SB to the rear. That's 3 SB's and nobody has posted that their rig is now riding to harshly.

Just looking for valid reasons and answers. I need more proof and don't just accept what others say!!

[RRR]

Originally Posted by FLRosebud

...This was the trac bar I was looking at: https://supersteerparts.com/product/...lt-3rd-member/

...Looks easy enough to install in my driveway.

Save some coin and the service is just as good. Now if you don't like the color...

https://www.ultrarvproducts.com/inde...path=5414_5413

[RRR]

Originally Posted by TeJay;5121137/

...Another look!! What about those who have replaced their front SB with a larger diameter one. Then added another SB to the rear. That's 3 SB's and nobody has posted that their rig is now riding to harshly.

Just looking for valid reasons and answers. I need more proof and don't just accept what others say!!

I'm in your corner on this. I did the CHF and noticed a good improvement, even the DW noticed in the first few miles. No increased harshness.

I wanted more sway control and added the Hellwig front and rear heaver bars. Little more control and no increase in harshness.