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Old 07-04-2017, 09:16 AM   #1
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F53 Vibration issues

1999 F53 Chassis... we had a terrible time getting our MH vibrations under control... here are the problems we had, the solutions... and approximate repair costs...

1. We had a hard vibration at slow speed... ended up being a dented rear drive haft... was like this when we purchased our MH... we got it very cheap because of this issue... spotted a smudge on the rear shaft while looking for issues underneath... had the drive shaft re-tubed... problem solved... it did have a slight bend in it... only a few thousandths of an inch but it vibrated pretty violently... probably caused by a piece of tire from a blow out hitting the drive shaft... cost $200 to have a new shaft made...

2. Tire balance... used the internal balancing beads... made a big difference... made the MH tolerable to drive... it even dropped the tire temperature considerably... cost $240.00 to have counter act beads installed in all 6 tires... later we bought new tires and they included magnum balancing beads at no extra cost...

Was a huge improvement but not exactly 100% at this point...

3. Wheel alignment... a friend that repairs and builds Semi trucks suggested the wheels were mounted off center... the 1999 F53 has hub piloted wheels, meaning the wheels are centered using the center hole in the wheel itself which leaves lots of room for error when mounting the wheels... he suggested a wheel alignment tool from Tru-Balance wheel centering products... they're basically alignment pins that thread over your existing lug bolt studs... they center the wheel using the axle studs... remove them once the lug nuts are torqued and use them on the other wheels... I was hesitant about this... looking at the wheels and hubs I didn't see any thing really obvious... no major gaps or off center appearance... wow what a difference they made... that took care of it! I was shocked! Smooth as glass now... $180.00 for the tool kit...

Hope this can help someone enjoy their travels a little more...
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Old 07-04-2017, 09:57 AM   #2
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Very interesting post. I'm not for one second doubting that you fixed it but for the life of me I can't see how a wheel centered hub can be off center.

There are two ways of centering a wheel rim on a hub: Lug Centered and Hub Centered. If you've changed enough tires you've seen lugs that were funnel shaped with the funnel side towards the hole in the rim. That centers the rim. The other method you know is the center of the hub fitting snug onto the hole in the rim.
That part sticking out from the rotating hub fits pretty snug onto the center of the rim. That would be pretty hard to off center unless this happened.

Your unit is a 1999 and you bought it used. It's very possible over those 15 plus years somebody changed a rim and that rim could have been manufactured incorrectly or it was just the wrong rim with a hole that was not the same size.

That's my guess as to how it happened. I don't know how standard the manufacturer of rims is but it's possible that a rim for that year RV could have a larger sized hole than originally came on it.

Do you remember any of the rims fitting sloppy when they were put on?? Did you put each rim on then finger tight about three lugs just enough to hold it in place but yet it could move if the center hole were slightly larger??

You said that you didn't see anything obvious. Since it got fixed that means that a difference of just a small amount was enough to cause the vibration. It is reasonable to assume that the difference was not enough to easily see. Maybe it could have been measured.

Since they are on now and working great it does not make sense to take them off to check. However I have not seen how that centering kit works but if or when you rotate tires or have to change a flat will that be an issue??

I'll try to file this information where I won't loose it and I'm sure down the road it will come in handy again. I will also look up that kit to see some pictures of it so I can get a better idea of how it works.

Thanks,
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Old 07-04-2017, 10:29 AM   #3
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I looked up that True Centering sight, watched the video and what they state makes good sense. I guess the hub centering manufacturing tolerances leave something to be desired and I was not aware that they could be that far off.

They stated that even a business card thickness off center is enough to cause vibrations. I just checked 10 business cards and they range from .009 to about .013 with one going as thick as .017.

To put that in perspective standard copy paper is .004 thick. So any off center of two to three thickness of a piece of paper (.008 - .012) is enough to cause a vibration.

The average technician will barely notice that small of a movement especially something that heavy and awkward to easily handle. First of all that small of a movement on something that heavy you'd have to be looking for it before you'd notice it.

Wheel bearing clearances are .003 or less. That can easily be felt but the wheel is bolted on and the hub nut is snug. When checking for the play you are not trying to fight the weight of the tire and rim and only looking for the play in the wheel bearings. Checking for wheel/rim play is a completely different game.

What was the number of the tool kit that you got?? I'm assuming you used the guide pin method and it fits into the rim holes for the F-53 rims. They didn't mention RV's rims when I looked at the video's.

Again thanks, very interesting and more ammo in my fix-it kit.
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Old 07-04-2017, 11:25 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeJay View Post
I looked up that True Centering sight, watched the video and what they state makes good sense. I guess the hub centering manufacturing tolerances leave something to be desired and I was not aware that they could be that far off.

They stated that even a business card thickness off center is enough to cause vibrations. I just checked 10 business cards and they range from .009 to about .013 with one going as thick as .017.

To put that in perspective standard copy paper is .004 thick. So any off center of two to three thickness of a piece of paper (.008 - .012) is enough to cause a vibration.

The average technician will barely notice that small of a movement especially something that heavy and awkward to easily handle. First of all that small of a movement on something that heavy you'd have to be looking for it before you'd notice it.

Wheel bearing clearances are .003 or less. That can easily be felt but the wheel is bolted on and the hub nut is snug. When checking for the play you are not trying to fight the weight of the tire and rim and only looking for the play in the wheel bearings. Checking for wheel/rim play is a completely different game.

What was the number of the tool kit that you got?? I'm assuming you used the guide pin method and it fits into the rim holes for the F-53 rims. They didn't mention RV's rims when I looked at the video's.

Again thanks, very interesting and more ammo in my fix-it kit.
I agree... and I was hesitant to use them... after inspecting the rim and wheel hub fitment I was skeptical that it would make a difference at all not to mention a noticeable one... it not only made a difference... it cured it! It is smooth...

Factory original undamaged wheels...

I don't even have a business card thickness difference between the wheel center and hub... I have the thread on over the lug stud type kit... three "sleeves" in the kit... thread them on in a triangle pattern... install the wheels... torque 5 of the 8 lug nuts... remove the tools... install the remaining lug nuts.... I have machinist experience, I have built muscle cars from scratch, built engines, transfer cases... I'm a refrigeration technician by trade... cascade, compound systems... ultra low temp scientific refrigeration and industrial anhydrous ammonia systems... I do all of my own work and repairs...

The wheel center and hub tolerances are sloppy enough to make a huge difference... apparantly it's a cheaper, faster manufacturing process for the larger axle assemblies...

I'll post the part number soon... If I remember correctly the lug studs are 19 x 2 mm.... I just called them up... Tru-Balance generally deals with Semi truck applications... however, he had lots of requests for the larger F series trucks and just so happens he had a kit that fits the F53...

The wheels were a little tough to install with the alignment tools inplace... after a little struggle and a few attempts I figured out a technique that worked for me... get the wheel in position, lay on one side, hold one foot against the bottom of the tire holding it in place, then kick the tire with the other foot working it onto the sleeves... starting at the top and working the sides... haha... it worked for me...
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Old 07-04-2017, 03:28 PM   #5
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Thanks for the update. Well we are both learning things every day. That's what I like and I'm sure you feel the same way. It sounds like you also have a lot of experience in many areas of science and technology. Can't think of my life without it.

There's almost nothing that I haven't tried or attempted and I hate to spend $$$$ if I don't have to. Sometimes over the years it would have been cheaper if I had paid somebody to do it in the first place but then what have I learned.

Great post and great information.
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Old 07-04-2017, 04:42 PM   #6
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1999 F53 20,500 lb. Chassis

14mm x 2.0 Coarse Thread
Part # A-1897
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Old 07-04-2017, 10:11 PM   #7
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I just had install 4 - M144 Toyo's on my dually's and among other things, I bought 12 (3 for each wheel) tapered self centering lug nuts. These 3 tapered nuts are put at 4, 8 & 12 o'clock on the rim to ensure the wheel is centered, then the rest of the lugs are installed, then all were torqued to 450 ft. lbs.
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Old 07-05-2017, 06:47 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marjoa View Post
I just had install 4 - M144 Toyo's on my dually's and among other things, I bought 12 (3 for each wheel) tapered self centering lug nuts. These 3 tapered nuts are put at 4, 8 & 12 o'clock on the rim to ensure the wheel is centered, then the rest of the lugs are installed, then all were torqued to 450 ft. lbs.
Nice...
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Old 07-06-2017, 04:25 PM   #9
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Wheel centering

The pics show the 4 tabs sticking out of the hub and used to center the wheel rim. I wrote what sized feeler gauge would fit into the space.

While the largest space is .011 according to the poster that's enough to cause a vibration. I bought one lug 14-mm X 2.0 ($5) and it won't thread onto my studs. I'll take the stock lug into a nut and bolt store so they can determine what the thread is then head back to the auto parts store for the correct size.

You can get a set of 24 tapered studs for under $30. What I'm not sure of is will the lug taper fit into the small space surrounding the wheel stud? I may have to make those holes slightly larger on the three holes I'd use to assist the wheel centering method.

Think of it this way. If I can find tapered lugs at that price which is about $1 a piece which I think I can. Then drill three holes on the rim slightly larger and taper the outside edge so the tapered lug will fit perfectly. Then when the tapered lugs are screwed into the rim they will have to more accurately center the rim. I'll check the accuracy using feeler gauges like I did before.

If for some reason this does not work I've lost a few bucks, some time and the rim will still be centered as close as it was before using the tabs on the hub.

As you can see I only checked the fronts. And the measured space is on two tabs which are together. It sounds reasonable that when I installed the wheel those two spots where on the top with the weight pushing the rim down tight closing any gap at the bottom. So in effect there is about .005 or so clearance all the way around the wheel rim but because of "hub centering" the weight is forcing all the play to be on the bottom half of the hub every time instead of being shared or split between all four tabs. I'm sure it can be moved up that .005 with tapered studs which will make it spin without the .005 run-out.

Bookdockin said it "after inspecting the rim and wheel hub fitment I was skeptical that it would make a difference at all not to mention a noticeable one... it not only made a difference... it cured it! It is smooth..."

Any thoughts/reactions would be appreciated.
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Old 07-06-2017, 05:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeJay View Post
The pics show the 4 tabs sticking out of the hub and used to center the wheel rim. I wrote what sized feeler gauge would fit into the space.

While the largest space is .011 according to the poster that's enough to cause a vibration. I bought one lug 14-mm X 2.0 ($5) and it won't thread onto my studs. I'll take the stock lug into a nut and bolt store so they can determine what the thread is then head back to the auto parts store for the correct size.

You can get a set of 24 tapered studs for under $30. What I'm not sure of is will the lug taper fit into the small space surrounding the wheel stud? I may have to make those holes slightly larger on the three holes I'd use to assist the wheel centering method.

Think of it this way. If I can find tapered lugs at that price which is about $1 a piece which I think I can. Then drill three holes on the rim slightly larger and taper the outside edge so the tapered lug will fit perfectly. Then when the tapered lugs are screwed into the rim they will have to more accurately center the rim. I'll check the accuracy using feeler gauges like I did before.

If for some reason this does not work I've lost a few bucks, some time and the rim will still be centered as close as it was before using the tabs on the hub.

As you can see I only checked the fronts. And the measured space is on two tabs which are together. It sounds reasonable that when I installed the wheel those two spots where on the top with the weight pushing the rim down tight closing any gap at the bottom. So in effect there is about .005 or so clearance all the way around the wheel rim but because of "hub centering" the weight is forcing all the play to be on the bottom half of the hub every time instead of being shared or split between all four tabs. I'm sure it can be moved up that .005 with tapered studs which will make it spin without the .005 run-out.

Bookdockin said it "after inspecting the rim and wheel hub fitment I was skeptical that it would make a difference at all not to mention a noticeable one... it not only made a difference... it cured it! It is smooth..."

Any thoughts/reactions would be appreciated.
Awesome post! You can tell from the measurements which side of the wheel was facing up when it was mounted... my MH is a 99 with 8 lug bolt pattern... yours is obviously different... I like the tapered nut idea but like you I don't think there is enough room to utilize the tapper to center the rim... I'm extremely skeptical about enlarging the rim bolt holes with a hand drill staying centered...
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Old 07-06-2017, 05:58 PM   #11
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Good point. I have a friend who is a retired machinist. He's up in OH now but lives the Winter in FL. I'll shoot him an e-mail and see what he thinks.

I have some beveling bits for wood working. I'm sure they make them for cutting metal as well. A beveling bit would or should center itself and then just taper the existing hole enough to get a tapered lug to fit.
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Old 07-06-2017, 09:09 PM   #12
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Tejay It looks like you are onto something good here ,any ideas for the rear ?
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Old 07-06-2017, 09:35 PM   #13
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Well I'm thinking about it as we speak (post). That's going to be a bit more difficult. I just got a well used (1962) South Bend metal lathe so I can do this.

I'd have to use a tapered lug but machine the lug steeper so it would fit through two thicknesses of the rim. If it's to steep it will bottom out against the inner hub and won't center the inner rim. If it's to shallow it still won't hit the inner rim.

I do believe that a reamer will make the rim stud holes slightly larger and keep them round. A slightly larger hole will allow a taper to enter the first rim and then go partway into the inner rim.

That's easy to determine by getting some metal the same thickness as the rims then drill some holes in them the size they are now and with two thicknesses of metal to replicate two rims work on the correct taper that fits through the first piece but only part way through the second.

Yes that's my current idea for the rears. I'll get some correct stud sizes and start.

I've just e-mailed my machinist friend in OH. He does not have great internet where he is now but eventually he will answer.
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Old 07-06-2017, 09:44 PM   #14
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Boondocking
Does your coach have the 19.5 or 22.5 wheels?
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