Community Forums

Rvbuzz · 05-11-2014, 07:34 PM

Has any one tried different brake pads on their f53 chassis?
I have a 2013 22k chassis and I have to say that the brakes are weak at best and require alot of pedal pressure to stop. I have had to do a panic stop and they do work but just do not inspire confidence.
Having owned 4 previous motorhomes with better brakes than this it seems that this should be a solvable problem.
I race cars for a hobby and most are just production based cars with stock brakes except the pads. The race pads make a huge difference.
I was looking to see if anyone has found a better pad than stock to improve feel and stopping power.
I would like my wife to drive this motorhome but I am holding off on this because of the brakes. She has driven all of our other ones. Even a 38' diesel pusher.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

macantic · 05-11-2014, 07:50 PM

seems odd to me! maybe they aren't seated in good yet.my previous coach which was a 2002 Pace Arrow on a ford chassis and my present coach which is a 2006 Pace Arrow on a workhorse chassis both would almost stop on a dime and give you a nickel's change on the original brake pads.

TeJay · 05-11-2014, 08:51 PM

If you've got racing experience you perhaps know this stuff. I'm partial to the NAPA quality brake components. They have over the years kept up with OEM stuff and have some that are better. Check with them for a top of the line material. Things change so I don't know what is their best quality pad these days. Ceramic was good then they went to a semi-ceramic and on and on. They usually carry about 4 different lines of pad materials.

Now on to the pads/rotors. You said that you had some panic stops. Making a panic stop will prematurely glaze the linings and render them useless. The extra heat generated crystallizes the bonding agent and the pads will not stop well. The glazed surface rubbing against a glazed rotor does not work well.

Google "Brake pad burnish procedure" This process is essential for proper pad and rotor conditioning to assure the best brakes possible.

Burnishing, bedding-in or breaking in the pads and rotors is not widely practiced. The DOT states that proper burnishing is not completely finished until about 200 moderate stops with a 1-minute cool down period between each stop. I know that sounds dumb but that's what is stated. Actually you will do that in the normal course of driving. Always try to avoid the panic stops early on. I actually had one guy tell me that you just take it out and smoke them a few times and their broken in. More correctly stated is that they are just broken.

There is quite an involved process that occurs during burnishing. Material from the pads is transferred to the rotor. That's why it is always recommended that rotors be machined when replacing pads. Many on here won't believe that it needs to be done. New pads rubbing against a smooth rotor will not allow the burnish process to occur. If the burnish process does not occur your brakes will be short lived and not very good.

TeJay

Rvbuzz · 05-11-2014, 11:09 PM

Thanks for the replys.
The coach had 2,300 miles on it when I got it 2 months ago. It now has 4,300.
My one panic stop was actually a full braking collision avoidance from 65 to 35 mph.
I was not on the brakes for very long and did not experience brake fade during this event.
The process to burnish brakes on racecars hardly takes any time at all so it must be different than street cars. The process sounds similar but is completed in 10 minutes on a racecar.you do have to cool down the racecar rotors before going out on track.
It just seems that with a grippier pad material it would have a much better feel and stop alot quicker.
I will check with a pad manufacturer to see if different compounds are available.
For my racecars I can get about 5 different compounds just for racing one type of car. They of course make a few compounds just for the street too.

TeJay · 05-12-2014, 10:02 PM

You've got a good background in mechanics so you'll understand what I'm going to say.
I know your miles are low and one would not expect to have rotor or pad issues with so few miles. Don't make the mistake of assuming that something is doing its job just because of low mileage. The coach had 2,300 miles on it when you bought it. Who put on the miles? What ever the reason you still don't know exactly how it was treated.

This much we both know. Smooth rotors and even slightly glazed pads do not a pair make. IMHO the next thing I'd do is service the fronts with machined rotors and some good quality pads. Perform a proper burnish with about 10-20 stops from about 40-45 MPH down to about 15-20 MPH with a 1-minute cool off period while accelerating up to the next stop. That could be accomplished just driving in and around town.
If the burnish period is started properly then the remainder of the necessary stops to complete the process will be accomplished as you continue driving the MH.

Since the fronts are typically used to perform the majority (usually a 70%-30% split) of the stopping you should notice a significant improvement.

You could buy your pads from the Ford dealer since they will be built to match the OEM standards. Maybe Jamesxxx or Subford will weight in on this. They both are very much up on Fords.

TeJay

jamesrxx951 · 05-13-2014, 03:02 PM

I would recommend driving a similar year F53 chassis. In some of the last builds there was some sort of change in brake design and the pedal feels harder. It still stops very well but not the same feel as my older F53 chassis.

Rvbuzz · 05-13-2014, 10:29 PM

Thanks Tejay and Jamesrxx951, servicing the fronts sounds like a good place to start.
In racing we never put new pads and rotors together except when we are changing compound of the pads because we want the burnishing process to go quickly.

You dont want to mix pad compounds on the rotor.

I may just service the rotors and take a good look at the pads to see if they show any over heating.

The original 2,300 miles was from delivery from Iowa and whatever the dealer put on it moving it from location to location of shows.

TeJay · 05-15-2014, 08:14 AM

Rvbuzz,
I taught brakes for 35 years and thought I knew a lot about the subject. Don't get me wrong I never professed that I knew everything about any automotive subject. This business of pad material transfer on to the rotor I learned just last year while reading about brake burnishing. I always insisted that rotor machining was necessary when changing pads to assure that the two surfaces were parallel. Pad material transfer to the rotor surface convinces me that I was correct. I can't tell you how many times I was told by kids (telling me what Daddy told them) and other adults that it is not always necessary to machine rotors. Just as long as there are no groves re-use them as it.

There may be some applications like in the racing world that rotor machining is not always done but that's a minor exception.

Do let us know how it turns out. James suggestion also has merit. Ford may have changed something and the brake feel may be different. I will tell you this. Our 2014 WBGO Vista 30T, F-53, 18,000 lb chassis stops as I would expect it. We've had a few quick stops and it performed well. This is our third MH. We had a 1977 Tioga, 23' on a Dodge chassis, a 1999 Dutch Sta, 35' r on the F-53 and the WBGO on the same chassis. All of them stopped as I would expect. The Tioga had a hanging phenolic caliper piston once. I changed both pistons and re-built the calipers.

TeJay

jamesrxx951 · 05-15-2014, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeJay

Rvbuzz,
I taught brakes for 35 years and thought I knew a lot about the subject. Don't get me wrong I never professed that I knew everything about any automotive subject. This business of pad material transfer on to the rotor I learned just last year while reading about brake burnishing. I always insisted that rotor machining was necessary when changing pads to assure that the two surfaces were parallel. Pad material transfer to the rotor surface convinces me that I was correct. I can't tell you how many times I was told by kids (telling me what Daddy told them) and other adults that it is not always necessary to machine rotors. Just as long as there are no groves re-use them as it.

TeJay

Im in the same boat as long as there are no issues with the rotors, install new pads only. I have been dong it for a few years now and much happier with the stopping performance after the pad replacement. Even using an $8K on car brake lathe I hated how long it took for the pads to seat in. Using a rotory disc to help smooth out the rotors and add a multi directional surface may help a little but I don't remember a significant different. Granted I hate messing with brakes but the last straw for me was having to machine the rotors on my Ford Edge. It took a month or so before the brake feel and stopping distance was where it should be. The ambulance fleet I manage over now the original guys that work there have always just pad swapped on these vehicles. They are medium duty trucks. After driving them after the pad swap and there is no change in braking performance before and after the swap I don't plan on changing that procedure. I do however wonder if there is a machine that resurfaces the rotors as smooth as replacement rotors that does not have machining groves.

Nick-B · 05-15-2014, 04:11 PM

Buzz,
Don't neglect checking the rear brakes. On a motorhome the brake proportioning is different than a car since the rear is much heavier. Not unusual for the rear pads to wear just as fast or faster than the front.

TeJay · 05-15-2014, 07:02 PM

I also always did a non-directional sanding on newly machined rotors. Usually a 100 grit pad on an air sander.

As far as the finish. I once called a company to order some ceramic cutting bits for our lathe. I figured that they would last longer. The guy asked me what I was going to do with them and I told him I wanted to machine brake rotors. He advised me against it because it would make the rotors to smooth which would interfere with the breaking in or burnishing process. I accepted his word for it since I assumed he knew what he was talking about. Ammco does not offer a ceramic cutter either.

TeJay

jamesrxx951 · 05-15-2014, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeJay

I also always did a non-directional sanding on newly machined rotors. Usually a 100 grit pad on an air sander.

As far as the finish. I once called a company to order some ceramic cutting bits for our lathe. I figured that they would last longer. The guy asked me what I was going to do with them and I told him I wanted to machine brake rotors. He advised me against it because it would make the rotors to smooth which would interfere with the breaking in or burnishing process. I accepted his word for it since I assumed he knew what he was talking about. Ammco does not offer a ceramic cutter either.

TeJay

I do wonder how new rotors are finished. I guess a trip over to you tube may help with that. But new rotors are fairly smooth with just minor scratching from the machining process. Nothing like machined rotors from a lath or on car brake lath.

spanuts · 05-15-2014, 08:09 PM

the 22000# chassis of the f53 uses a HydroMax 21.1:1 ratio brake assist system. The 18000# chassis of the 30t f53 uses the hydro-boost 8.19:1 ratio system. Currently I have the HydroMax system on our new rig with 6000 miles now . our old rig a 30ft with the hydro-boost stopped great the new rig does not . I went to dealer and explained about unhappy braking and he suggested driving another unit like mine same results poor braking. Guess the 21.1:1 ratio is just that 2.5 times harder pedal than 8.1:1 I will also try the Brake pad burnish procedure . thanks for the info

Rvbuzz · 05-16-2014, 03:42 PM

Thanks Spanuts, I think that is what I am experiencing. It takes a good amount of pedal pressure compared to any other Rv I have owned.

As far as the racecar goes. I will start with a new set of rotors at the beginning of the season with old pads and burnish those. I rarely change compounds since I have found one I really like. Then I will install a new set of pads and do a quick burnish of that set. Rotors will last a full season and we may go through 3 sets of pads for the complete season. We never machine the rotors between pad changes. And we use stock rotors from the parts store. We stay away from the Chinese stuff. Pads are all USA stuff. Very high friction material but easy on rotors in relative terms.

I have also replaced pads only on many of my vehicles over the years and just done a quick sanding of the rotor surface to break up the glaze.