Community Forums

GypsyR · 12-03-2021, 12:02 PM

What kind of "flexible" brake line? I usually go a parts store and buy a roll when doing something extensive. My next roll will be "Ni-Cop" line. No rust and easy to double flare. That said, since I spent way too much on a line flaring tool I tend to look for excuses to use it. IE, making brake lines the hard way.

I can identify with your parts shopping list. Used to be you could walk into your chosen parts store and load up. Nowadays that seems typical, three local parts stores and two online might get you enough to start a project. Maybe.

MarvinG · 12-03-2021, 08:46 PM

I’m going to start a short thread on that. I’ll show a picture of it. It is like mini-hydraulic hose. Braided, virtually indestructible in the sense of it would probably never rub a hole vibrating against anything. It is expensive, relatively. But it is so easy to pull in, ty wrap in place and done.

In this case I snipped off the two ends, measured about the length I need and went to Felton’s Clutch in Chattanooga. Showed them the two ends, told them I needed 25’ in between. They matched the ends, made it up with the crimped ends and I have it ready to install. Can probably snake it in, connect it and ty-wrap secure it in less than an hour. I could do it with hard line but to do that from the Master cylinder up high where it is and try to make it work down, around, up, over, I’d have to do it in several pieces to ever get it in. I’m careful with my money, I’ve worked hard for it. But I’m also getting more and more careful with my time and energy expenditure. For my situation this stuff is the answer!

THenne1713 · 12-03-2021, 11:00 PM

MY concerns might be two fold w/ flex line that long: 1) If two feet length (re: fronts) of flex hose have x-Expansion FACTOR, what will 25-foot do as far as mushy/ soft pedal vs metal tubing? THERE is a reason WHY metal is used by ALL MFRS??. 2) I recall the gas supplier swapping the steel braid for copper (and later s-steel) pigtails on the 1500-PSI Nitrogen and Oxygen tanks after complaints about unusual high consumption found the AGED, stainless steel braid hoses leaked like screen doors when soap applied? Good Luck...

MarvinG · 12-04-2021, 05:10 AM

I’m sure the reason vehicle manufacturers don’t use it is cost. Stainless braid is way more expensive. You make some valid points though. I didn’t have a mushy pedal before, if I do now this flex will be suspect. My complaint with the brakes from day one is they are just marginal. I wouldn’t want to add mushy pedal to marginal brakes.

I doubt leaking will be an issue. At least not initially. Felton’s Clutch has been in business a long time here in Chattanooga and I don’t think they would use a product that had any liability concerns. Still yet, you make another valid point.

I have about 12’ of this stuff on my Ranger pickup. Is working well. Obviously not near the pressure that will be applied on my RV.

One could run metal from the front to the rear. In my case the metal from near the bottom firewall up to the master cylinder is OK but the joint is where I can’t get tools on it to break it loose. I can get tools on it but it won’t budge. Possibly with persistence, I could get it loose. But the alternative to running all flex that would be viable for me would be run flex from master cylinder down to where I can easily make a connection and run metal from there on back. I’ll run this flex and report on the process on a new thread. Hopefully in the next few days, weather permitting.

MarvinG · 12-04-2021, 07:07 PM

Thenne1713: {MY concerns might be two fold w/ flex line that long: 1) If two feet length (re: fronts) of flex hose have x-Expansion FACTOR, what will 25-foot do as far as mushy/ soft pedal vs metal tubing?}

It is a valid point and I’ve done some research, all I could find was anecdotal, no hard specs to use for data. So I snaked the flex in tonight took about 40 minutes start to finish. I need to ty wrap it enough to keep it out of harms way when I test drive it, and working by myself I don’t have the air fully bled out of the system yet. Rain coming in for the next six days so I may not get back to it for a few days. Depending.

It may be fine, or it may not. Best practice would be to run metal from front to back along the frame where it can be done fairly easily, and I would still run flex from the master cylinder down to the front frame which would only be about 4 feet.

I’m going to try it out as it is and go from there. If I’m not happy with it, I will take it out, and get a fitting put on it at the shortened length and run hard metal the rest of the way. I’ll start a new thread on that when I know for sure what direction I end up going.

THenne1713 · 12-04-2021, 11:00 PM

re: <<I can’t get tools on it to break it loose. I can get tools on it but it won’t budge>> You are using FLARE NUT WRENCH vs standard opend-end?

GypsyR · 12-05-2021, 11:32 AM

The stainless braid stuff for such applications actually has a center tube that is generally Teflon. In racing the OEM rubber lines from the chassis to the calipers are known to "balloon" a little and contribute to a mushy brake pedal. The fix being to install lengths of line like you are using. But word is they aren't a complete fix, they just lessen the effect.
I've notice that though race cars have stainless flex all over them they still tend to use "plain" metal lines on the longer runs.
Just going by that information I wouldn't feel completely comfortable myself replacing my long run metal line with flex hose. But you are not me. I would very much advise using adel clamps instead of plastic zip ties. Over time with chassis vibration the outer braid can act like a hacksaw on softer adjoining materials and it takes only the tiniest motion for it to be a problem. That stuff needs to be SECURE and also cushioned from contact with any chassis steel. Conversely a dull metal edge will in VERY slow motion slice through the braid and the line over time like a glacial speed knife. Been there and done all of that, in person. Braid certainly has its uses and is great stuff but isn't nearly as tough as most people think.

Money? I use "cheap" parts store standard brake line. But I have about $600 invested in the hydraulic flaring tool and various benders to be able to install it to the highest quality standard that I can. Lives depend on brakes.

MarvinG · 12-05-2021, 01:26 PM

Good advice and info from both of you.

THenne1713: It’s not the wrench so much as it is the position where that junction is between the firewall and the steering box. Probably with a lot more patience I might could have broken it loose. I admit to getting lazy and not thinking of the points you and GypsyR have brought up before I went for the easier way.

GypsyR: All good points. If I were doing it again, or if the pedal is too mushy, I would get a hard line fabricated running front to back. Would be a lot cheaper and also keep from purchasing a double flaring unit for no more than I would use it. And then either be more patient with breaking the joint at the firewall, or run flex to replace just that portion.

As far as installation goes, the pro is it is easy and fast to snake into place, most anyone with two hands can do it. The con is protecting it, now that it is installed, has taken another 1-1/2 hours and I’m not done yet!

I have fuel or vacuum line cushioning it through places where I am concerned it might rub, and if I leave it on, based on your warnings I will get more line and slit it and slip it over all other problem areas.

I do appreciate both of you bringing up things I had not thought of.

TeJay · 12-09-2021, 04:00 PM

MarvinG,

Nice job covering the brake repair. Many thanks for taking the time to do all that writing and pic taking.

Don't know what kind of shape I'll be in when our brakes need done. Got 45,000 miles since 2014 so it will be a few years at least. I'll be around 82 so I guess we'll see!!!

TeJay

MarvinG · 12-10-2021, 07:38 PM

You are an inspiration (and a great source of information as well) to the rest of us, TeJay. I expect I will be too old to drive this thing before I will need to do the brakes again. . . .

MarvinG · 03-02-2022, 09:17 PM

With rain slacking off, and the days warming I am completing the front brakes, had the rotors turned, new grease seals. Started bleeding brakes this morning, and ran completely out of the DOT 5.1 I use. Have ordered two more quarts from Amazon.

Did more thinking about GypyR’s comments about the flexible line not being as tough as I thought, and have ended up encasing it in garden hose all the way back. In a few days I’ll report back on how well this line works, primarily thinking about the concerns expressed about a soft pedal under duress.

If I were doing it again I probably would break it loose right at the front where the line was coupled at the firewall and run hard line back to the back. Probably wouldn’t be any more trouble than encasing this flex line inside hose has been.

MarvinG · 06-20-2022, 02:55 PM

I gravity bled the brakes some time ago and drove for several miles breaking in the new brake pads. Based on this short break-in drive, I believe I have better brakes than I’ve ever had and I’m no longer worrying about a line bursting or rusting through.

I still need to do an extensive test drive to confirm my brakes are actually better than they used to be (which was just awful). I always want to be sure my mind isn’t tricking me into believing time, money, and effort weren’t wasted.

I’m updating this post today because my daughter is visiting today and I prevailed on her to pump the brakes so I could make sure I had all the air out. Indeed I did.

And that leads me to this thought: back to the concern that the flexible brake line I used leads to a mushy pedal, especially under hard braking. When breaking the pads in, I did of course do multiple near “panic” stops per the instructions that came with the pads. I have not been able to discern any mushiness. However, I do wonder if, whether hot or cold, the pedal is pushing farther down before firmly activating the brakes. It has been so long since I drove it (before I started the brake job) that I no longer remember how far I pushed down to firmly activate the brakes. So the question niggling around in my mind is if I do have more initial pedal travel AS A RESULT of the flexible line.

So the bottom line regarding using flexible brake line. I wouldn’t do it again, not for a run this long, (unless there was no other way to get the line in there) due to the need to carefully protect it as it runs along the frame to the rear, and due to the unresolved potential for mushy pedal (which I don’t think I’m sensing) or POSSIBLY what I do sense as longer pedal travel before firm activation.