Triton V-10 pulsing

[waggintails]

Originally Posted by Minnesota51

Sorry to hear they have been throwing parts and labor at it and not fixing it.

As I said back on my July 3rd post, when our F53 V10 was surging, it was the Throttle Position Sensor being bad. It did not tell the engine computer how open the throttle really was, and so the engine computer had bad data coming in and thus was screwing up controlling the engine.

Did they ever check your throttle position sensor? I read this entire thread and did not see that any of your mechanics ever checked that.

I had taken your July 3rd post to my mechanic.

I would not call our efforts as "throwing parts at it". Each part was in response to an indication that that part could be the culprit. These were not overnight decisions and both shops are very reputable and intelligent mechanics. As to the throttle position sensor, both shops stated that they got no codes indicating a throttle position issue. The throttle position sensor on this coach is integral part of the throttle body.
Thanks for your response
Chuck

[waggintails]

Originally Posted by code2e

Hi Chuck, I read your last post with great interest. You and Cliff, for that matter, have been thru a lot. I will cross my fingers as well, for a long term solution.

I was very interested in the O2 sensor that was damaged. Am I remembering correctly that your cat convertor was stolen early on? If so, I wonder if the thieves did the damage to the O2 sensor?

The Walmart O2 sensor device is interesting. Unfortunately it is not a legal modification. We will hope it's not discovered during your next state emissions test. They will fail you for it, if they discover it.

The device functions as a spacer with a honeycomb filter. It removes the O2 sensor from the exhaust stream and causes it to run cooler. Sensor can still measure O2 in the restricted flow allowed by the filter. So cross counts will be delayed, slowing down response time.

Many, many years ago we had a similar device for spark plugs in oil burning engines. Called an anti-fouler. Same spacer construction. Made plug run cooler and spaced spark out of combustion chamber resulting in less oil fouling.

Good luck. Hope you get in some camping.

Thanks code2e for the response. No, it was Dan Hannah who had his cc stolen. Mine was the very first item we replaced as it was plugged. We don't have emission testing here in Washington so I am thankful for that. I have discussed this "fix" with Cliff and we both agree that this is only a work around and the problem is still in there somewhere. When Cliff's work slows down we will dig into it further and hopefully make a for sure fix. Right now his thinking is there is a glitch in the pcm program causing it to react to a sensor with the wrong settings. I also discussed this with the other shop and they agree it is certainly a good possibility. The only problem is there is no way to diagnose a bad pcm. It is essentially a process of eliminating the inputs as the source. Unless you know of a way? We will be leaving for a camp out later this week or the first of next. By the way, Cliff could get the quit surging by disconnecting the Mass airflow sensor. It never led to the problem being solved but we replaced it anyway. No fix.

[code2e]

Originally Posted by waggintails

Thanks code2e for the response. No, it was Dan Hannah who had his cc stolen. Mine was the very first item we replaced as it was plugged. We don't have emission testing here in Washington so I am thankful for that. I have discussed this "fix" with Cliff and we both agree that this is only a work around and the problem is still in there somewhere. When Cliff's work slows down we will dig into it further and hopefully make a for sure fix. Right now his thinking is there is a glitch in the pcm program causing it to react to a sensor with the wrong settings. I also discussed this with the other shop and they agree it is certainly a good possibility. The only problem is there is no way to diagnose a bad pcm. It is essentially a process of eliminating the inputs as the source. Unless you know of a way? We will be leaving for a camp out later this week or the first of next. By the way, Cliff could get the quit surging by disconnecting the Mass airflow sensor. It never led to the problem being solved but we replaced it anyway. No fix.

Would be interesting to learn how the O2 sensor was damaged if not by thieves. Might be possible for a road hazard to strike it? I could see it contributing to the demise of your cat convertor if it were damaged beforehand.

I agree on eliminating the inputs in diagnosing the PCM, but also verifying the outputs. PCM's can both get bad input as well as not producing good output. My only ways consist of scan data verified with a multimeter. Never learned to write code beyond basic.

Good to hear no state inspection. I escape them also in Salem, OR.

When we disconnect the Mass Airflow Sensor the PCM is programmed to substitute a value and monitor the Manifold Absolute Pressure and Throttle Position Sensor to update the value of airflow. Engine still runs well, sometimes better. If it is a lot better, we look closely at the MAF, needing cleaning or failing.

Hope your trip goes without a hitch.

[Minnesota51]

Originally Posted by waggintails

I had taken your July 3rd post to my mechanic.

The throttle position sensor on this coach is integral part of the throttle body.
Thanks for your response
Chuck

Yes, we had to replace the entire throttle body. It took about 30 minutes while we sat in the motorhome and a fellow opened the doghouse and worked on it. And it has run perfectly ever since.

There was no test of the sensor or codes checked. The RV shop manager had seen the condition before, and had fixed it with a throttle body replacement, and that's how he knew to replace the throttle body.

It was not a very expensive repair. About $500 as I recall.

I hope your coach is fixed now, though.

[danhannah]

Yes, 2000 miles driven this month, crossing mountain ranges in Colorado up to 10,000 feet, and towing the toad, and the mighty V10 is pulling hard and strong. All from a $12 dollar part.

What a joy after having so many problems and spending so much money!

Chuck and I have had many mechanics work on this problem, and lots of diagnostics from some very smart people. We are not replacing parts blindly. I personally have recorded and analyzed reams of data from the sensors. Nobody could never find a single thing out of spec.

The spacer in the Cat O2 sensor has solved, or at least patched the problem. Minnesota, the throttle position sensor (TPS) was laboriously tested by moving the accelerator very slowly and noting the voltages and looking for gaps in the readings. Still, the idea that a new throttle body fixed yours is intriguing.

It is very suspect to me that this is happening with aftermarket Cats. The Cat O2 sensor was reading within specs, which allow a value up to 1.0. Mine was reading .7 before the spacer, now reads .4 or .5. All of our mechanics said that a .7 was okay, but my motor disagrees. California, BTW, does not allow most aftermarket Cats.

The other notable change with the spacer is that the fuel trims all went back to around zero, both short and long term. And they stay there.

As to the PCM being a problem, mine has been re-programmed with a fresh Ford download. So probably not that.

I appreciate that the spacer is a band-aid fix. I guess the true test would be to install a Ford factory Cat, and see if the sensor went down to .4 or .5 by itself, with no spacer.

THANKS to all who have contributed thoughts and ideas, especially Code, who is a genius at these things.

1000 more miles to go on this trip - I will keep you posted.

[waggintails]

Originally Posted by danhannah

Yes, 2000 miles driven this month, crossing mountain ranges in Colorado up to 10,000 feet, and towing the toad, and the mighty V10 is pulling hard and strong. All from a $12 dollar part.

What a joy after having so many problems and spending so much money!

Chuck and I have had many mechanics work on this problem, and lots of diagnostics from some very smart people. We are not replacing parts blindly. I personally have recorded and analyzed reams of data from the sensors. Nobody could never find a single thing out of spec.

The spacer in the Cat O2 sensor has solved, or at least patched the problem. Minnesota, the throttle position sensor (TPS) was laboriously tested by moving the accelerator very slowly and noting the voltages and looking for gaps in the readings. Still, the idea that a new throttle body fixed yours is intriguing.

It is very suspect to me that this is happening with aftermarket Cats. The Cat O2 sensor was reading within specs, which allow a value up to 1.0. Mine was reading .7 before the spacer, now reads .4 or .5. All of our mechanics said that a .7 was okay, but my motor disagrees. California, BTW, does not allow most aftermarket Cats.

The other notable change with the spacer is that the fuel trims all went back to around zero, both short and long term. And they stay there.

As to the PCM being a problem, mine has been re-programmed with a fresh Ford download. So probably not that.

I appreciate that the spacer is a band-aid fix. I guess the true test would be to install a Ford factory Cat, and see if the sensor went down to .4 or .5 by itself, with no spacer.

THANKS to all who have contributed thoughts and ideas, especially Code, who is a genius at these things.

1000 more miles to go on this trip - I will keep you posted.

Dan, what a professional and credible response. Your analytical approach and detailed diagnostic process has been instructive and valuable to my efforts. Above and beyond that, it led to a fix that has me back on the road. I know, in all honesty, I would still be blindly looking for a solution. Cliff is excited also and another comment he made was that this is another clue to the eventual solution. By the way, I received the scanner yesterday and am anxious to learn to use it. Thank you so much. Minnesota, I will discuss the throttle body with Cliff along with his thoughts that the pcm is the problem. I am excited to get back out on the road, not only to be back in the RV lifestyle but to put the worry of this long and frustrating journey behind us. I echo Dans appreciation for all the interest and responses to this thread and certainly Code2e and his in-depth approach and valuable input.
Happy Trails to all and may the road be paved with good fortune. Chuck

[code2e]

Originally Posted by danhannah

Yes, 2000 miles driven this month, crossing mountain ranges in Colorado up to 10,000 feet, and towing the toad, and the mighty V10 is pulling hard and strong. All from a $12 dollar part.

What a joy after having so many problems and spending so much money!

Chuck and I have had many mechanics work on this problem, and lots of diagnostics from some very smart people. We are not replacing parts blindly. I personally have recorded and analyzed reams of data from the sensors. Nobody could never find a single thing out of spec.

The spacer in the Cat O2 sensor has solved, or at least patched the problem. Minnesota, the throttle position sensor (TPS) was laboriously tested by moving the accelerator very slowly and noting the voltages and looking for gaps in the readings. Still, the idea that a new throttle body fixed yours is intriguing.

It is very suspect to me that this is happening with aftermarket Cats. The Cat O2 sensor was reading within specs, which allow a value up to 1.0. Mine was reading .7 before the spacer, now reads .4 or .5. All of our mechanics said that a .7 was okay, but my motor disagrees. California, BTW, does not allow most aftermarket Cats.

The other notable change with the spacer is that the fuel trims all went back to around zero, both short and long term. And they stay there.

As to the PCM being a problem, mine has been re-programmed with a fresh Ford download. So probably not that.

I appreciate that the spacer is a band-aid fix. I guess the true test would be to install a Ford factory Cat, and see if the sensor went down to .4 or .5 by itself, with no spacer.

THANKS to all who have contributed thoughts and ideas, especially Code, who is a genius at these things.

1000 more miles to go on this trip - I will keep you posted.

Hi Dan, So happy to hear about possible cure. Best part is getting out on the road again. Chuck filled me in on the adapter you both are using. Seems to change the O2's operating characteristics in a good way. Hope it stays good news, for good.

[code2e]

Originally Posted by waggintails

Dan, what a professional and credible response. Your analytical approach and detailed diagnostic process has been instructive and valuable to my efforts. Above and beyond that, it led to a fix that has me back on the road. I know, in all honesty, I would still be blindly looking for a solution. Cliff is excited also and another comment he made was that this is another clue to the eventual solution. By the way, I received the scanner yesterday and am anxious to learn to use it. Thank you so much. Minnesota, I will discuss the throttle body with Cliff along with his thoughts that the pcm is the problem. I am excited to get back out on the road, not only to be back in the RV lifestyle but to put the worry of this long and frustrating journey behind us. I echo Dans appreciation for all the interest and responses to this thread and certainly Code2e and his in-depth approach and valuable input.
Happy Trails to all and may the road be paved with good fortune. Chuck

I noticed you had acquired a scanner. If it would be helpful, I would be happy to assist with any questions. May I ask which model?

What is most helpful to understand about any scanner is they read out processed information. No scanner, even the OEM factory tools, can actually read inputs directly. They read out what the PCM has interpreted the input to be and what command has been output from data and lookup tables.

So, when you view numbers, just think in a range and how they compare with each other. Exact numbers will only come from a meter connection on the sensor. Shouldn't condemn a part on scan data only.

Trouble codes are similar. They are guides, but setting a code by itself is not enough to condemn a part.

Will be handy to watch your fuel trims and possibly get a freeze frame if a code does set. Those are handy diagnostic tools.

Good luck.

[waggintails]

Originally Posted by code2e

I noticed you had acquired a scanner. If it would be helpful, I would be happy to assist with any questions. May I ask which model?

What is most helpful to understand about any scanner is they read out processed information. No scanner, even the OEM factory tools, can actually read inputs directly. They read out what the PCM has interpreted the input to be and what command has been output from data and lookup tables.

So, when you view numbers, just think in a range and how they compare with each other. Exact numbers will only come from a meter connection on the sensor. Shouldn't condemn a part on scan data only.

Trouble codes are similar. They are guides, but setting a code by itself is not enough to condemn a part.

Will be handy to watch your fuel trims and possibly get a freeze frame if a code does set. Those are handy diagnostic tools.

Good luck.

3mirrors Straight 58MM O2 Sensor Check Engine Light Eliminator Adapter M18x1.5 Mounting Fittings Accessories - Stainless Steel - Walmart.com

I went with the one Dan Hannah had researched and felt was ok for the money. I am smart enough to know I will leave in-depth diagnoses to the folks trained to do that. Therefore, did not want to spend a ton of money for it. However, it will be interesting to watch things over a prolonged period, like the fuel trims. If something does show up perhaps it will be useful when I do take it to a shop. Like Dan, I am very interested in the throttle body sensor angle. It really makes so much sense but without any identified codes or specific data, as long as my coach runs good with our work around, I am not going to spend the money to replace it on a hunch. Thanks for the offer of help, I will probably need it.
Chuck

[tsemsley]

Hi All,

I too have the surge issue on my 2014 Itasca Suncruiser. I recently purchased it, and ironically, the cat was stolen and replaced before I bought it. I'm sure it is aftermarket. I also have a 5-star tune on mine, but the issue started before I did that. If I add fuel injector cleaner to mine, it will sometimes make the problem go away. Also, like I saw in the thread, once the gas pedal reaches about 75% the problem disappears. I ordered the spacer, which I have used on other vehicles to remove a P0420 code. I will add the spacer, remove the tune, and cross my fingers. Thanks for the 12 pages of advice!

[danhannah]

Very interested to see if it works for you. Especially since you have the aftermarket Cat.

I have just completed a grueling 3000 mile trip, including up and over the Rockies, and not a single surge. The motor ran stronger than ever, and mileage was up 1/2 mpg consistently.

I have reinstalled 5-star tune, because it was not the problem after all.

The trouble is, every time you clear the codes, disconnect the battery, install a new tune, or even switch off the chassis main power everything resets and you think you have found the problem. Not so.

Anyway, the cheap spacer fixed my problem. Chuck, are you still running good?

Best of Luck tsemsley!

[tsemsley]

And just to be clear, no spacers on UPSTREAM O2s, just the single downstream one? I didn't think that one did much except monitor the cat, but information online says it may be more.

[waggintails]

Originally Posted by danhannah

Very interested to see if it works for you. Especially since you have the aftermarket Cat.

I have just completed a grueling 3000 mile trip, including up and over the Rockies, and not a single surge. The motor ran stronger than ever, and mileage was up 1/2 mpg consistently.

I have reinstalled 5-star tune, because it was not the problem after all.

The trouble is, every time you clear the codes, disconnect the battery, install a new tune, or even switch off the chassis main power everything resets and you think you have found the problem. Not so.

Anyway, the cheap spacer fixed my problem. Chuck, are you still running good?

Best of Luck tsemsley!

I have only been able to travel about 150 miles and not put the engine under any strain. Having said that, the spacer done the trick. There is no indication of a surge at all. I just wonder if anyone has replaced their CAT with an OEM replacement and not experienced this problem? As we remember, I experienced the problem coming home from a long trip. It turned out my CAT was plugged so we replaced it with aftermarket one. The problem continued after that until I installed the spacer. If they weren't so darn expensive I would do it just to see if the problem really is the aftermarket units. Thoughts.

[Russ Silber]

When FL had car inspection I hollowed my cat and reinstalled it passed with better numbers then before. No codes no problems go figure also not worth stealing when you knock on it and it's empty.
Don't think a problem when it's sold some time in the future.
No O2 sensor after cat on early
V10 engines.

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