Wheel Centering

[phil-t]

Got it -thanks.

[C-Leigh Racing]

Think I'm kinda understanding this a lot better now. I'm one, that standing in front of a mirror, I know I can see myself, but I want to see what is behind the mirror.

So, Ford builds a product, that the hub machining process worker dont know what the wheel machining workers are doing, or it could be the other way around. Either way, this is like a stupid ordeal that a customer has to put up with.
Digging into this a bit more, Ford produces a product, several products used in building up the complete unit are not up to spec, so an outside source has to come up with a product to solve the problem that Ford should have replace or re engineered & offered to the owners of said units.
So then, this outside source produces a product to correct a foul up on a Ford product not up to spec.
I guess somewhere along the line during these years these out side sources must have had some inside connections to get Ford to do this, or good friends with the engineers designing these units. So later on in production Ford corrects the wheel & hub problem, I guess those outside sources & Ford must have had a falling out or they wasnt paying the engineers a big enough dividen check so Ford corrected the problem.
I really would hate, for this to turn out be real & all these years of customers having to put up with the F53 chassis issues. All of these issues & we the owners of said units, just keep on solving the problems ourself that Ford really should be addressing themself. What ever happened to a company taking blame for their mistakes on a product they produced. When I messed up at my business, I had to make it right, so why do the big companys get a free pass.
Neil

[TeJay]

Neil,

You are making a GREAT point!!!!!! I don't know if it's a free pass. Most any complicated item made has growing pains. Much testing is done but we all know how that turns out sometimes. I doubt it's possible to make a product that does not need improvements.

I'm sure we all agree that we should not have to be fixing things that they can't get correct but at the same time we still want to use what we bought and we want it to be better.

We know who has the deepest pockets so many of us refrain from the lawyer path and figure it's easier to just fix it and head down the road. And who wants or needs the grief?????

And another thing that came to me. I enjoy fixing what they didn't know was wrong or wouldn't fix. Many post responses telling us fixers that we are not engineers and should leave it to the experts. Some of us are just not wired that way.

I do have a Bachelor of Science in Industrial Education and a Masters degree in Education but that in itself didn't make me an expert and I don't consider myself one anyway. Just about anything mechanical or technical that we purchase soon after it's out of the box my mind is finding weaknesses and/or faults. Then it's on to make it better. That's just how I'm wired!!

I made this same statement somewhere else on these forums but it's appropriate.

The world is sure thankful that T. A. Edison didn't stop after 100 or 500 or even 1,000 tries to find a suitable filament for his electric light. In fact it took him over 1,500 attempts to finally solve the problem. If he had stopped sooner we might still all be in the DARK!!

[C-Leigh Racing]

Ford, should know how to make a hub that would center a wheel & theres no reason a customer should deal with this.
Any of you ever replaced rear drum brake shoes ? on a Ford pickup. If any have, then you know once you have adjusted, backed off, the shoes away from the drum so the drum can be pulled off, 99.9% of the time that drum is stuck in place at the point where it centers on the end of that axle flange. There have been many times as well, that the wheel itself is stuck in place where it is centered on the axle flange & got to be hammered on to break the wheel loose from that axle end.
So, why at this point, does Ford not know how important it is for a wheel to center on the hub its bolted to, really, like all of a sudden that just slipped the engineers mind while designing these 53 chassis.
Neil

[TeJay]

Neil,

Perhaps for the same reason I have again heard that it is not necessary to balance rear wheels on RV's. Maybe on an RV Ford does not consider it important to assure correct centering of the wheel assembly. Or if the tolerances were tighter they are worried about having some wheels rusting to the hubs as we have seen on other vehicles?

How did the latest 6-speed leave the Ford factory in late 2015 with out them testing and assuring that the TH function was working correctly??? Then it took Ford almost a year to admit that they screwed up!!!!!

Don't know if Ford ever issued a recall, contacted the owners or since an owner would actually have to read the owners manual to determine how the TH function was supposed to work and then went to the effort to take it to a Ford dealer with the complaint??

[C-Leigh Racing]

Got a type of question kinda on this same line.
Who has pulled the front hubs off of theirs or had someone to pull them off.

Wondering what type of lube is in the hubs for those bearings. Is it oil or grease ??.
I've been wanting to check mine, but didnt want to break the cap loose & the oil run out if it is oil in them.
Thanks, Neil

[Randalpho]

Grease, old fashion pack the bearings.

[C-Leigh Racing]

Ohhh, thats going to be a job, pulling them big heffers off & back on trying not to damage the inside seal. Sounds like a job for a heavy truck shop.
Thanks, Neil

[Waiter21]

Got a type of question kinda on this same line.
Who has pulled the front hubs off of theirs or had someone to pull them off.

Plain ole high temp axle / chassis lube grease. I did it several years ago on our old 2001 Mirada.

I was getting ready to do mine when I inspected brake pads on our "New-to-us" 1999 Southwind. I suspect someone put new pads on it very recently (50k miles.) so I didn't do the pads or the bearings.

In a couple years, probably around 75k miles, I'll replace the brake hoses, put on new pads, and repack the bearings. 20 year old brake hoses are running on borrowed time..

[TeJay]

HF sells a motorcycle hydraulic lift. I think I'll check on the price or at least take a good look at it and maybe snap some pictures. For the price of a bit of metal and a 2-ton jack one could easily build a device to take the weight off that front hub and slide it off.

I'd build a top out of angle iron with the iron upside down then fit a wooden top inside the rails to hold it in place. Could also secure it from the bottom with screws.

Then build up blocks of wood as needed to support the hub in what ever way it needs to be supported. Building up blocks/pieces of wood is easier than building up pieces of steel. If you need to move a block for better support just unscrew it and move it.

I can get the hub onto a work bench once it's off the front axle. It's the awkward position of bending over then reaching out and under the wheel well with all that weight out in front of you that makes it so darn difficult. I remember how it was 20 & 30 years ago when the back was much younger so I realize with this beast it would hurt.

I still really like to oversee that type of work because I just don't trust most techs these days. And it's to important not to do it correctly.

I'm still pushing the use of full synthetic bearing/axle lubrication. I realize the old stuff is OK but for a few $$$$ more there's something even better so why not use it???

Think of the job the grease has to do with the two bearing inner/outer axle set up. Two bearing with an inner seal are covered in grease and they are expected to last upwards of 70,000 miles. The grease placed in the roller bearings never circulates and it is never filtered like engine oil. It's not under pressure and forced into all the necessary tight places as it does it's job. The only heat present is from the friction generated by rotating and we don't want a great deal of heat.

Most of us DIY folks use our hands to get the grease into the roller bearings. Some may have a bearing packer but I'd guess less than 5% of us do. I should have borrowed the one from the auto shop after it was closed because it just got thrown away like a lot of the other equipment.

Correctly setting the bearing clearance between .001 & .003 is also most critical.

About a year ago I was visiting Sam a student who has owned a shop since he graduated in the last 80's. While discussing thinks one of his new techs came by and Sam asked him, "Did you get those front bearings set correctly?" The techs response was, "Yep!! I got the hub nut as tight as the impact wrench would get it."

This new tech had spent 1 year at the local post High School Vocational Center learning to be a technician. If that's what he learned I can't imagine what else he might have incorrectly or just didn't learn???? Very scary!!!!

Something else that has happened locally but I'll assume it will spread. With the few vocational programs that remain the basic policy is now that students can't work on any live vehicles of any kind. They have to work only on shop vehicles which will never be driven on the roads. The administration is afraid of law suits.

I started my career in 1971- 72. Very quickly I realized if we only worked on student cars they only fixed what was broken if they had the money to do it. Yes they want their cars running but they also needed the $$$ to do it. Sometimes they did but most of the time they didn't.

For the next 35 years we worked on student, faculty, and community vehicles. No it did not drive the curriculum and only vehicles that I deemed of value to the learning experience were brought in. We didn't work on repairs that was not covered and appropriate to the area we were studying. Here in AR I had three levels of training and kept students for three years. By the Senior year those 18 to 22 kids were pretty decent technicians and we did just about every type or repair within reason.

We charged a small reasonable shop fee based on the labor hour for each repair just like a shop would. That made it a realistic financial experience. It also made a little $$$ for broken or lost tools. supplies or student field trip expenses.

In all those years we never had one single issue with upset customers or any law suits of any sorts. No vehicle was in an accident because of something we did or didn't do correctly. Nobody complained to the administration and if they did it wasn't serious enough so I never heard about it.

We did have one vehicle stolen. Faculty would just drop their cars off at the shop and put the keys in the glove box. The teacher called me at 2-PM and asked if her car was done. I told her that I never saw it that morning. I guess the kids saw her place the key in the GB and took it for a joy ride. It was found with no damage. I installed a key slot in the shop wall for keys.

[C-Leigh Racing]

Now when you say 0.001 to 0.003 bearing clearance, you measuring between the nut & washer, after the nut is snugged down & then backed off.

Oh, about the school changing & not allowing stuff, way I see it, a lot of the stupid stuff going on today is caused by greedy lawyers. Good friend of mine (magistrate) ask me one time, you know how a judge becomes a judge, no I say, because they dont have enough common sense how to be a lawyer.
Neil

[C-Leigh Racing]

Waiter & Tejay,
Say like if I took some round stock, to spin out some of these sleeves to true the rims up, just clean up the holes in the rim for a good OD hole measurement & then Waiter you stated your sleeves were .560 ID to fit over the stud, where could I find a drill bit or milling tool to bore the inside with.
I feel like I should be able to lathe out a few of these to true out my wheels. Material might not be hardened, but how many times will I have the tire/rims off.
Neil

[TeJay]

Neil,

The correct way to check bearing clearance would be to mount a dial indicator (usually a magnet) so the total in and out movement of the wheel close to the axle can be measured.

That is not easy to do so most just grab the wheel at 6 and 12 and wiggle in and out. The tech should feel little to no movement.

If I have a setup that allow me to place the cotter pin in any location I usually wiggle the wheel with one hand at the bottom while turning the spindle nut in until the movement just barely goes away.

If the cotter pin has to align with the hole in the axle then I tighten the nut until the movement goes away then turn the nut out until the pins lines up with the hole.

Here's another important step that I used. After all bearings are correctly packed and the wheel is installed I would use a 1/2" D ratchet to tighten down the spindle nut 1/8 to 1/4 turn over tight then spin the wheel several times. That does several things. If the races were removed it assures that they are down onto the shoulder. It sets the seal in as well and distributes the grease around within the rollers. To much grease packed up might not allow correct bearing clearances to be as easily felt.

Then loosen the spindle nut and proceed to the bearing clearance adjustment.

In all my years making the adjustment that way I never experienced a failed wheel bearing on student, outside or personal vehicles of any sort.

What's 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean??? "A good start!!!!

[TeJay]

Neil,

First thought is how accurate are the rim stud holes?? If they are not accurate then sleeves won't be as accurate. A reamer will assure that they are all the same.

I think you can order a reamer in just about any size but it might cost you $30 to $50. That was why I wanted to just use a lug nut that has a machined taper to fit inside the stud rim hole and move the rim to the center.

I have not taken my wheel off to measure the stud hole diameter yet. The best thing to do might be to buy a tapered reamer to ream 3 or 4 of my 10 holes in each rim to the exact size. Then machine a tape on a lug and center the rim. You can't drill those holes easily unless you use a drill press. Reaming them would be the easiest way to do that.

I could do the same for the rear but would have to match up the 4 holes so the sleeve would fit through both rims.

Currently with hub centering the size of the rim stud hole is really not important. We can make it serve the purpose to augment hub centering by reaming 3 holes and machining a lug to fit into the reamed hole centering the rim.

Answering your post has made me rethink this and what I just explained I think is the easiest thing to do. A tapered lug could fit both front or rear.