50A RV home wiring help/troubles

[jacwjames]

Have you checked the voltages at the 50 amp plug. Do you get 120 volt for each of the L1 & L2 terminals and 240 across them?? Do you get any voltage across the neutral and ground terminals?

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by NC25T

Hello

Back in 09 I paid a electrician to hook up a 50a service at my house, converting a garage heater to a 50a plug. Turned out myself and the electrician didn’t know RV’s are different then a normal 50A so we fried a few things in the coach.

Fast forward to this year, different coach & a different electrical company….. explained to the company RV’s do not run a conventional 50A service, he said no problem I can do it. At least a dozen times I voiced my concerns and the electrician said if it makes you feel better when you get the RV back (it was in for service), I can stop by and make sure everything is correct. He looked it over and gave me the OK…. Plugged it in & the display above the entry door which states gen/20/30/50 was blank… he insured me it was correct so I let it be. Fast forward approx 4 hours when I was inside my business (RV is parked 150+ ft behind building) I smelled sulfur… turned out the batteries were off gassing, all 8 chassis batteries were severely bulging with two batteries blowing off gas.

The batteries are 2 yrs old

I feel it was wired wrong for a RV

When I open the panel which goes out to the RV plug, the two hot wires are fused how they should be & go to where they should go on the plug. The common and ground are hooked together on the same bus bar (I think that’s what it’s called) inside the panel. The wires that feed the power to the garage (is a older building, probably built in the 40’s) is a 3 wire power line.

Any suggestions on what i\we should do?

To me it seems like it’s wired wrong, it’s done how a welder or normal 50a service would be run, I feel the electrician wired it wrong caused the 8 batteries to go bad on me.

Any suggestions on what to do? The owner of the company and a few of his electricians came out last week. They showed me why they feel they are correct and that it’s wired properly, only one way to wire a 50a outlet. I tried to show them something we printed out showing how the ground and neutral need to be separated but they wouldn’t even look at the paper.

I have called every RV service center in the area trying to find a electrician they could suggest to come out but no luck.

What RV do you have? What inverter/charger do you Have?


There is too much talk here about the house wiring IMHO. You problem is DC not AC. If your inverter can handle 240V and you lost the neutral then I would agree your problem is house wiring. You might be putting 24V on your 12V batteries!

[NC25T]

Well, picked up the RV a few days ago and fortunately no damage to anything, I had the shop check everything out when it was in for a generator repair. They did a horrible job working on my RV so I don’t fully trust their diagnosis; hopefully this week we can head out camping and check everything a bit more.

I still don’t trust the 50a outlet, working on trying to get it figured out.

[NC25T]

Well, finally a end to this story!

Called a 3rd electrician to come out and look at things, the owner is a friend who we have used in the past for electrical work.

The electrician was very willing to listen unlike the original company’s electricians. We talked about everything that happened here as well as the issues I had years ago with a different RV. After showing him how it was wired as well as a schematic the original company used, he felt that the best option was to install a grounding rod. Prior to this, the common and ground were both put together at the same point, now the common goes to that same bar as before and the ground goes to the box itself which is then sent to a 8ft rod stuck in the ground. It’s been several days and it finally works!

[Dodge Guy]

Originally Posted by NC25T

Well, finally a end to this story!

Called a 3rd electrician to come out and look at things, the owner is a friend who we have used in the past for electrical work.

The electrician was very willing to listen unlike the original company’s electricians. We talked about everything that happened here as well as the issues I had years ago with a different RV. After showing him how it was wired as well as a schematic the original company used, he felt that the best option was to install a grounding rod. Prior to this, the common and ground were both put together at the same point, now the common goes to that same bar as before and the ground goes to the box itself which is then sent to a 8ft rod stuck in the ground. It’s been several days and it finally works!

You’ve got to be careful with that setup. A separate ground rod in most areas is not code and could be a problem. Check out the NEC for their guidance/rules on auxiliary ground rods. Most all homes have the neutral bonded to the ground, there is a bonding screw on the neutral bus bar.

[bigb56]

Originally Posted by NC25T

Well, finally a end to this story!

Called a 3rd electrician to come out and look at things, the owner is a friend who we have used in the past for electrical work.

The electrician was very willing to listen unlike the original company’s electricians. We talked about everything that happened here as well as the issues I had years ago with a different RV. After showing him how it was wired as well as a schematic the original company used, he felt that the best option was to install a grounding rod. Prior to this, the common and ground were both put together at the same point, now the common goes to that same bar as before and the ground goes to the box itself which is then sent to a 8ft rod stuck in the ground. It’s been several days and it finally works!

Unbelievable. What your 3rd "electrician" did is illegal and dangerous. You now have no effective grounding path. Any ground fault will now simply energize your ground rod and all your grounding wires, ground pins and exposed metal. Hard to believe any electrician would actually think that is OK, and that it will clear a fault.

[bigb56]

If there was indeed a problem with the old service that nobody could prove with testing or locate & repair properly in a relatively cost effective way, or if you thought there was a problem, the only proper course of action as a licensed professional is to install a new service to code, with a permit & inspection, or walk away. A Band Aid approach leaves a huge liability on the table, not to mention the danger to your family.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by NC25T

Well, finally a end to this story!

Called a 3rd electrician to come out and look at things, the owner is a friend who we have used in the past for electrical work.

The electrician was very willing to listen unlike the original company’s electricians. We talked about everything that happened here as well as the issues I had years ago with a different RV. After showing him how it was wired as well as a schematic the original company used, he felt that the best option was to install a grounding rod. Prior to this, the common and ground were both put together at the same point, now the common goes to that same bar as before and the ground goes to the box itself which is then sent to a 8ft rod stuck in the ground. It’s been several days and it finally works!

I have installed many RV outlets and pedestals. Not knowing your exact RV outlet location I can't address what has been going on at your home. I will share some experience here.
If the RV outlet is mounted on the home it must have a separate ground and neutral feed from the home service panel. The ground of the outlet is to be bonded to the RV outlet enclosure if it is metal.
If the RV outlet is remotely located on a pedestal it must have a ground rod associated with it. Never should the ground and neutral be connected together at the outlet. The reason for the ground rod at the pedestal is for added protection in the event of lighting strikes to the service pole for one, and to ensure a low restive ground at the RV location.
As I think about your situation I recommend you have the electrician upgrade your home grounding rods to the latest NEC requirements. For a 200Amp service it is required to have #4AWG solid wire in a continuous run connected to 2 x 8' x 5/8" grounding rods spaced 6' apart with the top of the rod 6" below grade level. The service panel neutral and ground must be bonded together.

If you have this done you may find other strange problems with your home electrical that you have simply lived with as being normal may go away.
I don't understand your comment about the RV 50 Amp service being different than the standard (if I recall your intent correctly). The standard 50 Amp dryer outlet is wired the same as a RV outlet. The ground lug design may be different but it is still a 240V/120V outlet: L1/L2/N/G.
Where things get wacky in the RV world is the 30 Amp outlet. Many electricians have wired them as 240V much to their regret. This will fry the RV when it is plugged in and the breaker is turned on. A 30 Amp RV outlet is only 120V at 30 Amp max. A 50 Amp outlet is 2 x 120V at 50 Amps max per L1 or L2, giving a total of 100 amps available to the RV.

[bigb56]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

I have installed many RV outlets and pedestals. Not knowing your exact RV outlet location I can't address what has been going on at your home. I will share some experience here.
If the RV outlet is mounted on the home it must have a separate ground and neutral feed from the home service panel. The ground of the outlet is to be bonded to the RV outlet enclosure if it is metal.
If the RV outlet is remotely located on a pedestal it must have a ground rod associated with it. Never should the ground and neutral be connected together at the outlet. The reason for the ground rod at the pedestal is for added protection in the event of lighting strikes to the service pole for one, and to ensure a low restive ground at the RV location.
As I think about your situation I recommend you have the electrician upgrade your home grounding rods to the latest NEC requirements. For a 200Amp service it is required to have #4AWG solid wire in a continuous run connected to 2 x 8' x 5/8" grounding rods spaced 6' apart with the top of the rod 6" below grade level. The service panel neutral and ground must be bonded together.

If you have this done you may find other strange problems with your home electrical that you have simply lived with as being normal may go away.
I don't understand your comment about the RV 50 Amp service being different than the standard (if I recall your intent correctly). The standard 50 Amp dryer outlet is wired the same as a RV outlet. The ground lug design may be different but it is still a 240V/120V outlet: L1/L2/N/G.
Where things get wacky in the RV world is the 30 Amp outlet. Many electricians have wired them as 240V much to their regret. This will fry the RV when it is plugged in and the breaker is turned on. A 30 Amp RV outlet is only 120V at 30 Amp max. A 50 Amp outlet is 2 x 120V at 50 Amps max per L1 or L2, giving a total of 100 amps available to the RV.

The OP's RV hookup is located in a detached structure with a 3 wire service. The "electrician" removed the neutral to ground bond in the detached structure's service panel and drove a ground rod instead. With no connection to neutral, there is now no effective grounding path and a hundred ground rods won't change that. Prior codes allowed a 3 wire service to a detached structure (with certain conditions) and required the neutral and ground to be re-bonded at the separate structure for this reason. Grounding electrodes such as ground rods are also required at the separate structure and must also be bonded to the neutral on a 3 wire service.
4 wire services are now required at detached structures, but the existing 3 wire service is grandfathered and removing the neutral bond renders the equipment safety grounding useless and creates a serious hazard that didn't exist before.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by bigb56

The OP's RV hookup is located in a detached structure with a 3 wire service. The "electrician" removed the neutral to ground bond in the detached structure's service panel and drove a ground rod instead. With no connection to neutral, there is now no effective grounding path and a hundred ground rods won't change that. Prior codes allowed a 3 wire service to a detached structure (with certain conditions) and required the neutral and ground to be re-bonded at the separate structure for this reason. Grounding electrodes such as ground rods are also required at the separate structure and must also be bonded to the neutral on a 3 wire service.
4 wire services are now required at detached structures, but the existing 3 wire service is grandfathered and removing the neutral bond renders the equipment safety grounding useless and creates a serious hazard that didn't exist before.

I respectively disagree with you here. Nothing in the code says to bond an outlet neutral and ground together. The ground is a safety. If you bound the neutral and ground together at a fixture you risk the chance of having a hot shell if the ground fails. Other isolation problems can happen in the coach service panel and transfer switch. A sub panel with breakers must have the ground carried over from the main service panel and is just what a RV service panel is. A sub to the main.



Grounding is a science in its self.

[NXR]

The OP's RV hookup is located in a detached structure with a 3 wire service. The "electrician" removed the neutral to ground bond in the detached structure's service panel

Originally Posted by jerichorick

I respectively disagree with you here. Nothing in the code says to bond an outlet neutral and ground together. The ground is a safety. If you bound the neutral and ground together at a fixture ...

I'm missing where anyone was talking about the wiring to an outlet or a fixture.

Prior codes allowed a 3 wire service to a detached structure (with certain conditions) and required the neutral and ground to be re-bonded at the separate structure for this reason. Grounding electrodes such as ground rods are also required at the separate structure and must also be bonded to the neutral on a 3 wire service.

4 wire services are now required at detached structures, but the existing 3 wire service is grandfathered and removing the neutral bond renders the equipment safety grounding useless and creates a serious hazard that didn't exist before.

Yup, at least in our city.

Ray

[bigb56]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

I respectively disagree with you here. Nothing in the code says to bond an outlet neutral and ground together. The ground is a safety. If you bound the neutral and ground together at a fixture you risk the chance of having a hot shell if the ground fails. Other isolation problems can happen in the coach service panel and transfer switch. A sub panel with breakers must have the ground carried over from the main service panel and is just what a RV service panel is. A sub to the main.



Grounding is a science in its self.

Like NXR said nobody said to bond at a fixture or a device. Bond at the panel. An equipment ground does not work without a neutral bond. Modern sub panels have a separate grounding wire all the way back to the main where it is bonded to the neutral, and the neutral is isolated at the sub panel. Older 3 wire sub panels do not, so they are neutral bonded at the sub panel so the equipment ground will work. You can pound rods into the earth all day long but without a neutral bond you will never clear a fault at the user voltages we are talking about, can't happen, Ohm's law tells us that it can't happen.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by bigb56

Like NXR said nobody said to bond at a fixture or a device. Bond at the panel. An equipment ground does not work without a neutral bond. Modern sub panels have a separate grounding wire all the way back to the main where it is bonded to the neutral, and the neutral is isolated at the sub panel. Older 3 wire sub panels do not, so they are neutral bonded at the sub panel so the equipment ground will work. You can pound rods into the earth all day long but without a neutral bond you will never clear a fault at the user voltages we are talking about, can't happen, Ohm's law tells us that it can't happen.

I agree with this interpretation. I was reading that the OP had a bond at the outlet which was causing him all kinds of trouble. "SERVICE" is the key word here. A service panel is used to supply a feeder: RV outlet. IF, and I have not studied all the posts by the OP, there is a service panel remotely located, (not a sub panel which will have a ground extended from the feed service panel), and it was not grounded properly, the grounding solution must be to the remote service panel and not the RV outlet.


The pedestals I have installed a ground rod to are service panels with breakers feeding the 50/30/20 amp outlets.


So, I stand with the correct standard. I was in error in my thinking in my earlier post. My apology is given.


Rick

[TQ60]

We read the bottom and some of the top, all of the electricians in this thread should be fired!

No mention of actual MEASURED VOLTAGES...

I was suspect of a bad neutral allowing 240 total (L1 to L2) to be fine, but L1 to neutral shifting opposite of L2 to neutral could easily cause some things to have low voltage and others to have high voltage.

This is basic stuff.

The addition of a ground rod fixing this somewhat proves this but that ground rod is carrying current so do not touch it, it will have voltage on it.

Troubleshooting this is very few and simple tests.

30 seconds...tops...

One measures voltage to ground and neutral.

We had squirrels damage the neutral between house and pole, lots of odd things going on but the heavy 240 VAC stuff was fine.

Often they may be different.

You measure from both hots to neutral, should be same.

By the way, the HVAC are only 120 VAC so one is on each Line, so turning one on will usually cause the leg it's attached to to drop voltage because high current through bad neutral will have voltage drop across the bad connection drawing the neutral voltage towards the line reducing the voltage on that side, then the other side effectively has higher voltage resulting in magic smoke comming out.

EASY to test, you need a plug that fits the socket, a female 120 volt plug or an old extension cord.

Attach the socket to the 50 Amp plug, black hot to either L1 or L2, white to neutral and green to safety ground.

Find a good load, portable heater works well.

Plug heater into socket then plug into 50 Amp socket.

Measure the voltage from L1 and L2 to neutral and safety ground.

Would bet that both are not same.

Your neutral is faulty.