Air bag suspension truth and facts...

[LVRVLUVR]

i'm in design right now with a shock absorber manufactor to make a shock for the f53 ... it will have correct valving for compression and rebound

most shocks on the market don't have both.... so what they do is valve the the compression stiffer to control body roll

the real problem here is the cost factor... most will say the problem is not worth the cost to up grade...

[SpaceNorman]

Originally Posted by cbilodeau

No it does not come into play given the typical use profile that most DP owners fit. And this is rational.

What is not rational is when everything from a gaser has to be much worst all the time on every thread without being able to simply discuss a functionnality.

We are not talking religion but the difference between a airbag and a shock absorber. Look at them in this thread coming like moskitos with no technical arguments.

Maybe we should start every post with this sentence:

I KNOW A DP IS BETTER NO MATTER THE OWNER PROFILE BUT...

I must have missed the post where somebody said anything about DP's being "better" in this thread.

My comment was definitely not intended to fuel the "DP vs Gasser" fire. I was simply questioning the practical relevance of the shortcomings of an air suspension on rough dirt roads - considering that air suspension is typically only found on large DP coaches and that large DP coaches typically avoid rough dirt roads like the plague.

Your comments about "everything from a gasser has to be much worse ..." and "we're not talking religion...." seem to suggest that this is a sensitive issue for you. I suspect you're ascribing far more "judgmental intent" to the comments regarding diesel pushers than the authors of those comments ever intended themselves.

Just sayin...

[Coma]

It appears you understand spring rates and the damping thereof as well as you understand the difference between power and torque or how to conduct accurate measurements that are useful and repeatable.

Just more .

[aauummm]

Originally Posted by CampDaven

Well, no.
I do rough roads at speed and don't feel them. Gonna try a bump-O-meter?


Dave and Nola, RV Mutants

I have a bump-O-meter. She sits in the co-pilot's chair. She lets me know about every bump that I hit!

[Sweetbriar]

The OP is missing several key points concerning air based suspensions with respect to an RV application.

1. The ride height valves on an RV chassis are not instant height/pressure adjusting. They have a inherent dwell time to prevent a constant readjustment of the individual air pressure due to changes in the road surface. Additionally the small size of the piping used, normally 1/4 to 3/8", will not provide the volume needed for the suspension to quickly react to the changing road surface. With a wash board or poorly maintained road no noticeable changes to bag pressure will occur.

2. Air bags do not increase the load capacity of a given chassis as inferred by the OP. If your axles are rated at XX,XXX pounds adding air bags will not increase that number. What bags will provide is addition lift of the chassis away from the suspension stops to regain the designed chassis height. Supplemental air bags will not and do not increase the GCW capacity. Nothing you can bolt to a chassis will increase the load capacity of the axles.

3. Off Road Vehicles normally don't use them because they are fragile. Put a hole in a bag, blow out a bag, rip out an air line and your day is over.

4. Consumer marketed Class A RVs were not, are not and probably never will be designed to be driven on unimproved roads. There are a few specially designed and individually built rigs that can just about go anywhere but the builders are not targeting the consumer RV market with their product. Complaining about the poor performance of a given coach on fire roads or logging trails is a bit much considering the coach was never design for such an environment.

My coach - 2006 Ford F53 WITH supplemental, on the fly adjustable air bags at each corner. Did the bags change my ride quality? Some but not much. The biggest improvement was restoring correct ride height for a given load. Do I adjust the air pressure while on the move? Twice in two years. Once was a steady cross wind and the second was a very high and long road crown.

Everything about our rigs is a compromise in some form. From modified truck chassis, using head light assemblies from other vehicles to short queen mattresses. Sure I would like a perfectly smooth ride but I know it will never happen. On any given trip less than a 20% of the time out with the coach is spent behind the wheel on the move. I'm more interested in how to make the 80% better.

[LVRVLUVR]

Originally Posted by Sweetbriar

The OP is missing several key points concerning air based suspensions with respect to an RV application.

1. The ride height valves on an RV chassis are not instant height/pressure adjusting. They have a inherent dwell time to prevent a constant readjustment of the individual air pressure due to changes in the road surface. Additionally the small size of the piping used, normally 1/4 to 3/8", will not provide the volume needed for the suspension to quickly react to the changing road surface. With a wash board or poorly maintained road no noticeable changes to bag pressure will occur.

2. Air bags do not increase the load capacity of a given chassis as inferred by the OP. If your axles are rated at XX,XXX pounds adding air bags will not increase that number. What bags will provide is addition lift of the chassis away from the suspension stops to regain the designed chassis height. Supplemental air bags will not and do not increase the GCW capacity. Nothing you can bolt to a chassis will increase the load capacity of the axles.

3. Off Road Vehicles normally don't use them because they are fragile. Put a hole in a bag, blow out a bag, rip out an air line and your day is over.

4. Consumer marketed Class A RVs were not, are not and probably never will be designed to be driven on unimproved roads. There are a few specially designed and individually built rigs that can just about go anywhere but the builders are not targeting the consumer RV market with their product. Complaining about the poor performance of a given coach on fire roads or logging trails is a bit much considering the coach was never design for such an environment.

My coach - 2006 Ford F53 WITH supplemental, on the fly adjustable air bags at each corner. Did the bags change my ride quality? Some but not much. The biggest improvement was restoring correct ride height for a given load. Do I adjust the air pressure while on the move? Twice in two years. Once was a steady cross wind and the second was a very high and long road crown.

Everything about our rigs is a compromise in some form. From modified truck chassis, using head light assemblies from other vehicles to short queen mattresses. Sure I would like a perfectly smooth ride but I know it will never happen. On any given trip less than a 20% of the time out with the coach is spent behind the wheel on the move. I'm more interested in how to make the 80% better.

good post... lots of facts... more problems arise on the road from vegas to so-cal.... some of the repairs are just crazy... I think the bridge ramps that would put you air born were purposely done to slow down traffic..

I think you read into my post different than I intended

and it would be helpful if you quoted were I did the post to your reply

[Sweetbriar]

Originally Posted by LVRVLUVR

so...
here's why after market air bags work better than factory installed automatic air ride...

the driver is in control . and the very best you can get in air ride will never match spring suspension..

what air ride is,...it is cheeper.. in fact so much cheeper that chassis builders won't even consider the use of multi stage long travel springs...

on an add on air bag chassis you can add air for gcw... and keep it at that level on bumpy roads... or even let alittle out to make it smooth

can't do that with an air bag chassis

Hopefully the lawyers from Firestone won't be knocking on my door anytime soon for quoting from their web site but here goes -

"Q Does this allow my truck to carry more weight?
Absolutely not. Only the vehicle manufacturer can set the GVWR. Even with the air springs, you have the same brakes, axles, bearings and frame stiffness which in part determine the vehicles load capability. The Ride- Rite air helper springs simply allow you to carry the maximum capacity of your truck more comfortably and without suspension sag and the poor handling that comes with it."

Here's the link if you want to read it yourself -

http://riderite.com/installation-sup...sked-questions

I can add or release air from my after market airbags from the driver's seat but I have no way of knowing if the coach is level to the axles or what my ride height might be. A modern RV chassis with air bags does and does it automatically. Add 60 gallons of gasoline and I'll need to find a measuring stick. Add 60 gallons of diesel and the owners does nothing.

Adding air does not smooth out the road. I know because I've tried it. If fact if I get the pressures too high the ride actually gets worse.

How does the driver maintain correct ride height with multi stage long travel springs while in motion?

[NevadaNick]

Offroad trucks will use air suspension as soon a they can make it reliable. Modern motocross bikes are using air instead of springs now. I drive 4+ miles of washboard road to my house and one of the places we frequent is 35 mi of crappy road and my DP handles it great. Just because you dont think it works, doesn't mean it doessnt work for others.

[skypilot_1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot_1 View Post
Maybe next you could post a test drive with a "G" meter. That would be informative and scientific. You know "iron versus air". Forget what you think you feel, but have a "meter" tell you how smooth it is. Whole new area for your
"measurement of the proper instrument is used..as personal descriptions are meaningless".


"Air bag suspension truth and facts..."

You actually did it..good for you. They need all the input they can get !
__________________

[LVRVLUVR]

Originally Posted by Sweetbriar

Hopefully the lawyers from Firestone won't be knocking on my door anytime soon for quoting from their web site but here goes -

"Q Does this allow my truck to carry more weight?
Absolutely not. Only the vehicle manufacturer can set the GVWR. Even with the air springs, you have the same brakes, axles, bearings and frame stiffness which in part determine the vehicles load capability. The Ride- Rite air helper springs simply allow you to carry the maximum capacity of your truck more comfortably and without suspension sag and the poor handling that comes with it."

Here's the link if you want to read it yourself -

http://riderite.com/installation-sup...sked-questions

I can add or release air from my after market airbags from the driver's seat but I have no way of knowing if the coach is level to the axles or what my ride height might be. A modern RV chassis with air bags does and does it automatically. Add 60 gallons of gasoline and I'll need to find a measuring stick. Add 60 gallons of diesel and the owners does nothing.

Adding air does not smooth out the road. I know because I've tried it. If fact if I get the pressures too high the ride actually gets worse.

How does the driver maintain correct ride height with multi stage long travel springs while in motion?

when we bag trucks at the shop... we take the springs out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFBCUi1s06c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-cEiy5RFYM

lol....
https://youtu.be/8K5iBzSPSw4

[LVRVLUVR]

https://youtu.be/8K5iBzSPSw4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWhXa0MLb6M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkNZNbH4m-k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITbFyLQqSNg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZYe9CaAgMA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzCtpMNkqIk

[LVRVLUVR]

Originally Posted by NevadaNick

Offroad trucks will use air suspension as soon a they can make it reliable. Modern motocross bikes are using air instead of springs now. I drive 4+ miles of washboard road to my house and one of the places we frequent is 35 mi of crappy road and my DP handles it great. Just because you dont think it works, doesn't mean it doessnt work for others.

i didn't say anywhere that it doesn't .. if if didn't work they would still be on the lot

what would be cool is if you would go pro the suspension on your coach bomb'n the wash board road...

[cbilodeau]

Originally Posted by Sweetbriar

The OP is missing several key points concerning air based suspensions with respect to an RV application.

1. The ride height valves on an RV chassis are not instant height/pressure adjusting. They have a inherent dwell time to prevent a constant readjustment of the individual air pressure due to changes in the road surface. Additionally the small size of the piping used, normally 1/4 to 3/8", will not provide the volume needed for the suspension to quickly react to the changing road surface. With a wash board or poorly maintained road no noticeable changes to bag pressure will occur.

2. Air bags do not increase the load capacity of a given chassis as inferred by the OP. If your axles are rated at XX,XXX pounds adding air bags will not increase that number. What bags will provide is addition lift of the chassis away from the suspension stops to regain the designed chassis height. Supplemental air bags will not and do not increase the GCW capacity. Nothing you can bolt to a chassis will increase the load capacity of the axles.

3. Off Road Vehicles normally don't use them because they are fragile. Put a hole in a bag, blow out a bag, rip out an air line and your day is over.

4. Consumer marketed Class A RVs were not, are not and probably never will be designed to be driven on unimproved roads. There are a few specially designed and individually built rigs that can just about go anywhere but the builders are not targeting the consumer RV market with their product. Complaining about the poor performance of a given coach on fire roads or logging trails is a bit much considering the coach was never design for such an environment.

My coach - 2006 Ford F53 WITH supplemental, on the fly adjustable air bags at each corner. Did the bags change my ride quality? Some but not much. The biggest improvement was restoring correct ride height for a given load. Do I adjust the air pressure while on the move? Twice in two years. Once was a steady cross wind and the second was a very high and long road crown.

Everything about our rigs is a compromise in some form. From modified truck chassis, using head light assemblies from other vehicles to short queen mattresses. Sure I would like a perfectly smooth ride but I know it will never happen. On any given trip less than a 20% of the time out with the coach is spent behind the wheel on the move. I'm more interested in how to make the 80% better.

You gave 4 cons but forgot to give 4 pros. A lot of people have probably of lot of experience but if their only motivation to post is to show the singer is not as good as they are then they are simply working to stop the free show.

The OP is talking much more about Gasser suspension VS DP than off-road for an RV. He is using his off-road experience to help the newbies like me understand. And it is useful.

Anybody should know the GVWR can not "officially" be changed by a component. I would still be interested in a component that exceed the OEM specs. I don't see the point here.

I will start writing for you:

I can confirm the OP is right about 4 subjects:

1 - DP shorter suspention travel...

2 - Spring

3 -

4 -

[LVRVLUVR]

heres a winnabago off road...look how smooth and well it handle the off road

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KXu5HPKg84