Bad Diesel Fuel from Pilot

[Crasher]

Originally Posted by MingusPirate

I live in Arizona. And we have the mileage data from both the fuel mileage on our rig mileage indicator, and then the divide miles by gallons. We get 12 to 14 mpg with Chevron, Costco, and Shell consistently. We get 6 to 8 mpg with T/A, Flying J, and Pilot. No belief, just hard data. So snotty comments do not change me from believing data from two sources. Maybe you should try to measure your mileage.

I'm sorry, but I just can't swallow that. It's common knowledge that many of the stations get their fuel from the same tank farm. There might be a slight difference in the additives, but it is essentially the same fuel. You're saying that Chevron, Costco and Shell fuel has twice the performance as three of the top fuel suppliers to the trucking industry?? If that were true, either they would be overrun with semi's waiting to fill up or we would see Chevron, Costco and Shell Truck Stops springing up all over the country and a lot of "Out of Business" signs at the major suppliers.

Edit: I guess it's possible that you just brought this up to see what kind of reaction you would get. If so, it worked.

[ltmoeller]

My son in law drops 3 loads of diesel per day”12 hours”at the same loves,5 days a week.Same location.

[NHRA225]

Originally Posted by ltmoeller

My son in law drops 3 loads of diesel per day”12 hours”at the same loves,5 days a week.Same location.

So wouldn’t you say their tanks are relatively Clean ?

[flamebuster]

Originally Posted by NHRA225

I don’t believe for a minute the any Driver adds Additives to their loads of fuel !
Most all Diesel today is B20 meaning it has 20% Bio Additives.
When the switch was made years ago the only thing I noticed was a more frequent Fuel Filter change - gets a little sluggish if you will - no Big Deal - I change all 3 of my Fuel Filters @ 5 to 8000 miles .
In the last 239000 miles Fueling at Flying J Exclusively I’ve never had Bad Fuel !
The OP had a Coincidence of a Bad Fuel Pump or whatever at the same time He Fueled and Dumped on the Station !
Bottom line here is Change Your Fuel Filters !!!!!!

You are so very wrong. We have a 20,000 gal storage tank on the farm and order our fuel by the tanker load. When we call the different dist. companys we pay an extra .07 per gallon to have the right additive package added to the tanker ( power service is added by Connell Oil for their extreme diesel fuel) depending on price the fuel may come from Tacoma, Anacortez or Spokane and is delivered straight to my farm. The price can only be locked in for a 4 hour period.
Red dye is also added to the fuel when the truck fills as it is declared at that time as off road fuel..
Every company has their own additive pkg. Chevron tech fuel, Unocal extreme diesel for example.. Independants can get straight diesel with no additives if they want too, but it is not recommended.
And they do not add bio fuel in Washington state unless it is required in the Seattle area ( they live in their own world of regulations) That is usually a state mandated requirement for that states fuel stations. Some states require it simply to support the farmer other states require it for environmental reasons.

[mike5511]

Originally Posted by KanzKran

Up to and including 5% is not required to be labeled as containing biodiesel. None of the pumps anywhere around here show a biodiesel content label, but when I travel south, I start seeing them. Texas especially, if memory serves, though I've only encountered B20 once so far.

I don't think non-labeled pumps, other than the ULSD label, are actually required to have a full 5%, but AFAIK, there is some bio content in all ULSD fuel these days per federal law, and it's good for lubricity so that's always a good thing and may be the main reason its added.

I've seen stickers that said ".........may contain 5-20% bio-diesel" when traveling.

[fagnaml]

Let me the "Refining Guy" (M.S. Chemical Engineering / Refinery Operations Manager) dispel some of the "myths" in recent comments with facts about biodiesel, renewable diesel and conventional diesel (produced from crude oil). To start, both renewable diesel and biodiesel are produced using fatty acids (triglycerides) that comprise animal fats and vegetable oils.
Triglycerides are three diesel molecules "stuck together" with a glycerin molecule (see attached image -- green dots are carbon molecules, gray dots are hydrogen molecules, red dots are oxygen molecules).

Renewable Diesel is manufactured by processing the triglycerides in a refinery process unit which removes glycerol and carboxyl groups (the glycerin molecule) to produce three "straight chain" diesel molecules which have vey high cetane index rating (70-80) but are also very "waxy". Renewable Diesel, because it's chemical structure is very close to Conventional Diesel can be blended into ULSD in unlimited amounts.

Biodiesel is manufactured is a specially designed, catalytic "esterification" unit where the glycerol group is remove, but the carboxyl group remains, to produce three biodiesel "ester" molecules. Biodiesel "esters" have a high cetane rating (50-60) but are less "waxy" than Renewable Diesel. A unique property of Biodiesel "esters" is they are very good solvents which will attack all non-metallic components (i.e. O-rings, gaskets, plastic fuel filters, etc.) in the fuel system for any diesel engine. Because Biodiesel "esters" are such good solvents is why Cummins and other diesel engine manufacturers limit the maximum Biodiesel content in ULSD to 20% to assure O-rings, gaskets, etc. are not dissolved away. If Biodiesel was not a good solvent, it could be blended into ULSD in any amount.

"At the pump" the ULSD we purchase can contain any amount of Renewable Diesel and the consumer will never know as Renewable Diesel and Conventional Diesel are indistinguishable in a ULSD blend. If the ULSD contains 5% or less Biodiesel, no pump labeling is required under FTC regulations (only the Green ULSD label is required on the pump). If the ULSD contains 6-20% Biodiesel, the FTC requires that every diesel pump have a label stating the Biodiesel content. Here is a link to the FTC diesel pump labeling regulation --> https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...ng-rule#labels

The ULSD we purchase at the pump MUST have a minimum Cetane Index Rating of 40 (most refineries will produce a 41-42 cetane diesel to assure the 40 cetane minimum at the pump is always met). Unlike gasoline that has incentives to produce higher octane products, there is no economic or market incentive to provide a ULSD product with a high cetane index rating. At the pump, ULSD is ULSD is ULSD except for any proprietary additives a marketer may chose to add (such as ExxonMobil does for their Synergy Diesel).

ULSD purchased at Pilot or Loves or Chevron or Buc-ee's is the same quality diesel, minus any proprietary additives, and thus any of those diesels will perform the same in a diesel engine. The proprietary additives are typically detergent and anti-oxidation additives to help assure cleanliness of the engine and fuel system and protect the diesel from degrading (oxidizing) if it sits in a tank too long.

Finally, I'm not aware of any major oil company selling ULSD with Biodiesel content greater than 20% as doing so would put the primary consumer (trucking industry) at great risk of having fuel system component failures in each truck using ULSD containing Biodiesel. There are some government agencies purchasing diesel fuel containing 50-80% Biodiesel to meet agency "green" standards. The fuel systems in those vehicles have been upgraded to have no non-metallic components to be able to use a "B50" or "B80" diesel product.

Hope the forum finds this info useful.

[Down South]

I can only remember taking on bad fuel once. It was from a little store way out in the middle of nowhere so I'm sure they didn't sell much diesel. This was years ago before everyone was driving diesel pickups.

From what I've researched in the past. The best places to take on diesel is from places that sell a lot of diesel for obvious reasons.
So that would include any of your truck stops and big stores that sell fuel such as Costco, Kroger, etc.

With the minor stores, I've heard that it's not a good idea to take on fuel if the fuel carrier is dumping a load to the underground tanks. I've "heard" that it was best to wait at least 30 minutes after the carrier finishes dumping to allow sediment that could have been stirred up in the tank by the new load of fuel to resettle.

[KanzKran]

Originally Posted by fagnaml

Renewable Diesel is manufactured by processing the triglycerides in a refinery process unit which removes glycerol and carboxyl groups (the glycerin molecule) to produce three "straight chain" diesel molecules which have vey high cetane index rating (70-80) but are also very "waxy". Renewable Diesel, because it's chemical structure is very close to Conventional Diesel can be blended into ULSD in unlimited amounts.

Biodiesel is manufactured is a specially designed, catalytic "esterification" unit where the glycerol group is remove, but the carboxyl group remains, to produce three biodiesel "ester" molecules. Biodiesel "esters" have a high cetane rating (50-60) but are less "waxy" than Renewable Diesel. A unique property of Biodiesel "esters" is they are very good solvents which will attack all non-metallic components (i.e. O-rings, gaskets, plastic fuel filters, etc.) in the fuel system for any diesel engine. Because Biodiesel "esters" are such good solvents is why Cummins and other diesel engine manufacturers limit the maximum Biodiesel content in ULSD to 20% to assure O-rings, gaskets, etc. are not dissolved away. If Biodiesel was not a good solvent, it could be blended into ULSD in any amount.

Can you clarify those two bolded, underlined statements? Are you saying that chemically there is no limit on percentage bio content, but that for engine and component longevity it must be limited?

[HJLowell]

I agree with you flame

But the discussion is concerning loads delivered to truck stops, commercial sales outlets.

Not Agricultural , construction ussage with no road tax applied. Where the distributor is required to add Red Dye

Read all the above postes and get up to speed.

Originally Posted by flamebuster

You are so very wrong. We have a 20,000 gal storage tank on the farm and order our fuel by the tanker load. When we call the different dist. companys we pay an extra .07 per gallon to have the right additive package added to the tanker ( power service is added by Connell Oil for their extreme diesel fuel) depending on price the fuel may come from Tacoma, Anacortez or Spokane and is delivered straight to my farm. The price can only be locked in for a 4 hour period.
Red dye is also added to the fuel when the truck fills as it is declared at that time as off road fuel..
Every company has their own additive pkg. Chevron tech fuel, Unocal extreme diesel for example.. Independants can get straight diesel with no additives if they want too, but it is not recommended.
And they do not add bio fuel in Washington state unless it is required in the Seattle area ( they live in their own world of regulations) That is usually a state mandated requirement for that states fuel stations. Some states require it simply to support the farmer other states require it for environmental reasons.

[firedoc]

Originally Posted by AbdRahim

Tell us about that discount.

[fagnaml]

Originally Posted by KanzKran

Can you clarify those two bolded, underlined statements? Are you saying that chemically there is no limit on percentage bio content, but that for engine and component longevity it must be limited?

The answer to the question is "Yes", if a motorhome's (or semi-truck's) fuel system was 100% metallic (i.e. no synthetic vinyl/rubber O-rings, gaskets, no plastic, etc.) then the biodiesel content in ULSD could be unlimited. Biodiesel is better quality fuel than conventional (crude oil derived) diesel with a higher cetane index rating and equally good cold flow properties. The one downside of Biodiesel its it's long term stability. Biodiesel will oxidize (turn black) quicker than conventional and renewable diesels. Biodiesel is also better at attracting and holding water while it sits in storage meaning an increased risk of bacteria (i.e. the infamous slim) growing at the Biodiesel / water interface in a vehicle fuel tank. Hence why the use of Stabilizer and Biocide additives is a "must" if a motorhome's fuel tank is filled with a B5-20 ULSD/Biodiesel blend before the motorhome is placed in storage.

[Jetskier50]

Originally Posted by LunarSea

Never seen diesel at Costco???

A few have it. Not all

[Sherpa Vern]

Costco locations with diesel fuel.

https://www.costco.com/gasoline-diesel.html

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by mike5511

I don't think I'll be down on I10 anytime soon, but that is good to know. From what I've learned reading this thread I'm thinking all diesel will have at least 5% bio-diesel. I'm wondering if it is higher than that, that it will stated on the pump? I know there is no mention of any on the pumps I buy at around home. And I know that I have stopped and fueled at some stations on trips without labels but been told they had 5% bio diesel when I inquired.

All on-road diesel fuel today is B2 or more, B2 is the minimum to replace lost lubricity during the refining process that removes sulfur.
Read the links on bottom left corner of this website: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/biodiesel.shtml