Bad Diesel Fuel from Pilot

[mike5511]

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

All on-road diesel fuel today is B2 or more, B2 is the minimum to replace lost lubricity during the refining process that removes sulfur.
Read the links on bottom left corner of this website: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/biodiesel.shtml

Good info! Thanks!!

[mega__man]

Originally Posted by fagnaml

Before ULSD was introduced over ten years ago, engine manufacturers knew they would need to re-design engines (valves, injectors, fuel pump, etc.) to be able to use lower lubricity ULSD fuel (sulfur compounds in high sulfur diesel provided good wear protection for softer metal valves, injectors, etc.).


Owners of pre-2007 diesel engines should use a detergent/lubricity additive at every fill-up. Personally I use Power Services' Diesel Kleen (in the gray bottle) most months out of the year --> https://www.amazon.com/Power-Service...974612&sr=8-32

I do even in my 16. What I have been told it's it also lubricates all the exhaust parts. Now I have no proof but I love babying my automotive. And that "c" on the bottle makes me happy

Originally Posted by fagnaml

Let me the "Refining Guy" (M.S. Chemical Engineering / Refinery Operations Manager) dispel some of the "myths" in recent comments with facts about biodiesel, renewable diesel and conventional diesel (produced from crude oil). To start, both renewable diesel and biodiesel are produced using fatty acids (triglycerides) that comprise animal fats and vegetable oils.
Triglycerides are three diesel molecules "stuck together" with a glycerin molecule (see attached image -- green dots are carbon molecules, gray dots are hydrogen molecules, red dots are oxygen molecules).

Renewable Diesel is manufactured by processing the triglycerides in a refinery process unit which removes glycerol and carboxyl groups (the glycerin molecule) to produce three "straight chain" diesel molecules which have vey high cetane index rating (70-80) but are also very "waxy". Renewable Diesel, because it's chemical structure is very close to Conventional Diesel can be blended into ULSD in unlimited amounts.

Biodiesel is manufactured is a specially designed, catalytic "esterification" unit where the glycerol group is remove, but the carboxyl group remains, to produce three biodiesel "ester" molecules. Biodiesel "esters" have a high cetane rating (50-60) but are less "waxy" than Renewable Diesel. A unique property of Biodiesel "esters" is they are very good solvents which will attack all non-metallic components (i.e. O-rings, gaskets, plastic fuel filters, etc.) in the fuel system for any diesel engine. Because Biodiesel "esters" are such good solvents is why Cummins and other diesel engine manufacturers limit the maximum Biodiesel content in ULSD to 20% to assure O-rings, gaskets, etc. are not dissolved away. If Biodiesel was not a good solvent, it could be blended into ULSD in any amount.

"At the pump" the ULSD we purchase can contain any amount of Renewable Diesel and the consumer will never know as Renewable Diesel and Conventional Diesel are indistinguishable in a ULSD blend. If the ULSD contains 5% or less Biodiesel, no pump labeling is required under FTC regulations (only the Green ULSD label is required on the pump). If the ULSD contains 6-20% Biodiesel, the FTC requires that every diesel pump have a label stating the Biodiesel content. Here is a link to the FTC diesel pump labeling regulation --> https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...ng-rule#labels

The ULSD we purchase at the pump MUST have a minimum Cetane Index Rating of 40 (most refineries will produce a 41-42 cetane diesel to assure the 40 cetane minimum at the pump is always met). Unlike gasoline that has incentives to produce higher octane products, there is no economic or market incentive to provide a ULSD product with a high cetane index rating. At the pump, ULSD is ULSD is ULSD except for any proprietary additives a marketer may chose to add (such as ExxonMobil does for their Synergy Diesel).

ULSD purchased at Pilot or Loves or Chevron or Buc-ee's is the same quality diesel, minus any proprietary additives, and thus any of those diesels will perform the same in a diesel engine. The proprietary additives are typically detergent and anti-oxidation additives to help assure cleanliness of the engine and fuel system and protect the diesel from degrading (oxidizing) if it sits in a tank too long.

Finally, I'm not aware of any major oil company selling ULSD with Biodiesel content greater than 20% as doing so would put the primary consumer (trucking industry) at great risk of having fuel system component failures in each truck using ULSD containing Biodiesel. There are some government agencies purchasing diesel fuel containing 50-80% Biodiesel to meet agency "green" standards. The fuel systems in those vehicles have been upgraded to have no non-metallic components to be able to use a "B50" or "B80" diesel product.

Hope the forum finds this info useful.


Attachment 275571

Thanks, allot but dumb question, why does one station near me have green on some diesel fuel handles and yellow on others? (Or does it matter? The cashiers say it does not, and before asked I looked it isn't e85! )

[Crasher]

Originally Posted by mega__man

I do even in my 16. What I have been told it's it also lubricates all the exhaust parts. Now I have no proof but I love babying my automotive. And that "c" on the bottle makes me happy



Thanks, allot but dumb question, why does one station near me have green on some diesel fuel handles and yellow on others? (Or does it matter? The cashiers say it does not, and before asked I looked it isn't e85! )

Just wondering if the yellow is #1 diesel and green is #2. I used to know all of this, but the mind is a wonderful thing ,,,,,,,,,,,till it forgets.

[lwmcguire]

Often the green indicates some bio content in the blend

Yellow has been the generic container for diesel

Blue has been the generic container color for #1 diesel commonly called kerosene, typically the only difference is additives

[lwmcguire]

#1 diesel straight won't be at a pump except maybe in the far north

Burns to hot in normal temperatures and is usually used only for winter blends or jet fuel

[Crasher]

Great. Now I remember again.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by lwmcguire

Often the green indicates some bio content in the blend

Yellow has been the generic container for diesel

Blue has been the generic container color for #1 diesel commonly called kerosene, typically the only difference is additives

If you're talking about container color yellow is diesel and blue kerosene.

If you're talking about the color on the pump nozzles don't even try to figure it out. The colors are not standardized at all, and even within one brand you might find a difference from once station to the next. Maybe even one pump to the next.

For example, around Wisconsin BP stations use yellow handles on diesel and green on gasoline. Until they don't. My guess is that their supply truck sometimes doesn't have what they need, so they put on what ever is available. The pumps on the fuel islands of many truck stops use black handles on the diesel and blue on the def, except for the ones that don't.

Point is, always read the labels carefully. And, on pumps with multiple nozzles always be sure that the last guy pumping put them back in the correct spot and didn't cross things over. Just because a nozzle is in the #2 diesel holder doesn't mean it's connected to that pump - look up and confirm it's in the proper place.

It's not rocket science, but it does take some diligence to keep things pumping correctly.

[Milford 47]

Originally Posted by richard5933

If you're talking about container color yellow is diesel and blue kerosene.

If you're talking about the color on the pump nozzles don't even try to figure it out. The colors are not standardized at all, and even within one brand you might find a difference from once station to the next. Maybe even one pump to the next.

For example, around Wisconsin BP stations use yellow handles on diesel and green on gasoline. Until they don't. My guess is that their supply truck sometimes doesn't have what they need, so they put on what ever is available. The pumps on the fuel islands of many truck stops use black handles on the diesel and blue on the def, except for the ones that don't.

Point is, always read the labels carefully. And, on pumps with multiple nozzles always be sure that the last guy pumping put them back in the correct spot and didn't cross things over. Just because a nozzle is in the #2 diesel holder doesn't mean it's connected to that pump - look up and confirm it's in the proper place.

It's not rocket science, but it does take some diligence to keep things pumping correctly.

Excellent advice on the nozzle to hose verification. I have seen several Mom and Pops replace damaged nozzles with whatever they had in the back room. Color on the pump handle means nothing for sure. Yellow or off yellow seems to be on Ethanol now so as you said look and verify.

There have been more than one driver grab the wrong hose and it is a very expensive mistake.

[KanzKran]

Originally Posted by richard5933

For example, around Wisconsin BP stations use yellow handles on diesel and green on gasoline. Until they don't.

I've actually started avoiding BP stations around here for diesel because all the nozzles have green handles, and it's not always easy to identify which (single) pump actually has the diesel nozzle.

For that matter, the road side signs have green prices for both gas and diesel, so I can't always tell if a station actually even has diesel. More difficult still in heavy traffic and/or at night. But that's not quite the same as confusing nozzles.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by KanzKran

I've actually started avoiding BP stations around here for diesel because all the nozzles have green handles, and it's not always easy to identify which (single) pump actually has the diesel nozzle.

For that matter, the road side signs have green prices for both gas and diesel, so I can't always tell if a station actually even has diesel. More difficult still in heavy traffic and/or at night. But that's not quite the same as confusing nozzles.

At least at the BP stations I've seen, the new pumps all have one single nozzle for all three grades of gasoline. The pumps with diesel will always have a separate nozzle for the diesel, so you just have to look for the pumps with the extra hose & nozzle. I don't believe that there are any pumps which pump diesel and gasoline through the same nozzle (they are different sizes).

[TwelveVolt]

Originally Posted by Steve578

I always do a sniff check on the nozzle before filling up.

Has that ever gotten you pulled over?

[Solo_RV_Guy]

Originally Posted by TwelveVolt

Has that ever gotten you pulled over?

It's all good if you leave the nozzle attached to the hose and don't try to take it with you...

[lakebuster]

Originally Posted by danny285

You can Believe that the Tanker Drivers do add their own additive, I have watched them do it often while sitting at a truck stop waiting for a load.

Working 37 years at the largest oil/chemical company in the world gasoline and diesel is a commodity. At the truck terminals there are approximately 15-20 different small tanks that holds each company’s proprietary blend mixed in with the diesel and gasoline as the tanker trucks are filled. The cetane number of diesel has to meet a specification set by the API and is tested regularly...
Could human or equipment error occur yes but that would be for any brand!

[Chuck Driver]

Mike - would you mind elaborating on how you determine which months to use the fuel additive? Must be around refinery process irregularity?? Thanks!

Originally Posted by fagnaml

Before ULSD was introduced over ten years ago, engine manufacturers knew they would need to re-design engines (valves, injectors, fuel pump, etc.) to be able to use lower lubricity ULSD fuel (sulfur compounds in high sulfur diesel provided good wear protection for softer metal valves, injectors, etc.).


Owners of pre-2007 diesel engines should use a detergent/lubricity additive at every fill-up. Personally I use Power Services' Diesel Kleen (in the gray bottle) most months out of the year --> https://www.amazon.com/Power-Service...974612&sr=8-32